Did the tactical training market slow down?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The guy with the light saber and bathrobe, Him shoot I first.

[rob_s]

Given that I'm a middle class retired college professor, I will disagree that a violent encounter is unlikely. Maybe I am the outlier in the binomial distribution of incident/no incident but I've had enough to realize that there is a real threat at times.

of course, people seek out and interpret their data in the way that best serves their forgone conclusions.

That said, this *is* a gun forum. I am sure that most of you, like me even at peak gunfag, do not present in your day-to-day lives the way we all do here on a topic-specific forum.

FWIW, I used to see a major distinction between the gunfags and the trainingfags, but I don't anymore.

[BigD]

What am I going to do with that body armor now?

On some forum once upon a time, someone once questioned why a civilian (let's use the Oxford English Dictionary's definition here) needed plates and other body amour. After the questioner was accused of all manner of vile acts and beliefs, the eventual answer was that plates were needed for the range, as you can't trust the nutjobs at the range and someone might steal your AR and shoot you in the back with it while you are downrange pasting targets. The irony was missed by most.

I agree with what you wrote, @rob_s.

But you are on a pistol forum mostly dedicated to self defense, where university professors that have taken a weekend class can hold forth as knife fighting experts and no one bats an eye and where others proclaim they are so in tune with the danger lurking all around them that they are afraid to go to Wal-Mart. Let's not even talk about venturing into our nation's capital. Do you have a death wish?

Rob, no one wants to hear what you are saying.

I gleam the nuggets here (there are many) and let the rest go. Live and let live.

[Casual Friday]

There are some trainers who have been at it for a very long time who either need to hang it up or start to give a shit about the people that take time and money out of their lives to train with them. Case in point. A friend of mine took a multi day carbine class from one of the well protected sacred cows of the industry who you don't name or badmouth on other forums without being banned and shamed. He cashed out a week of vacation to fund the class and pay for travel and hotel expenses. From the start of day 1, it was evident the sacred cow didn't want to be there, and spent a good portion of the class looking at memes on Facebook, or talking on the phone. My buddy has wanted to train with this guy for years, and this was the first time he was within a days driving distance. To say he was disappointed is an understatement. I asked him if he was just being a drama queen, and he said that the other people in the class had the same feelings he did. One of them left for lunch on the second day and just never came back. He asked me if I thought he should leave a negative AAR on his FB page, and I told him that he had every right to, but to be prepared for the onslaught of hate from his dick riding fan club members. He opted not to, and in his position I don't really blame him.

Another thing that was mentioned in this thread is the desire to go hang out and play cool guy with a bunch of other guys and get shit faced every night. A LOT of guys use this type of event to get away from their wife and kids for a few days and live out a fantasy. I read a quote the other day "Most men lives lives of silent desperation". For many, sitting in a cubicle or office for 60 hours a week, looking down at your expanding waistline, and dreaming about the good ol' days, which are often not as good as we pretend they were, is the reality that they've found themselves in and it slowly chokes the life out of them. They look for an outlet, and if you're even a moderate gun guy a training class can be that outlet. I'm sure everyone here has been in a class with "that guy" who doesn't shut the fuck up about how bad ass he used to be or all the cool shit he does now. 10/10 that's the cubicle guy with the expanding waistline, nagging wife and asshole kids that he just spent the last 51 weeks dreaming about being away from for this 5 day tactical training class.

[Casey]

It’s interesting. The best overall instructor I have experienced is Craig Douglas of SHIVWORKS. I’ve taken ECQC, EWO, and Establishing a Dominance Paradigm from him. The Managing Unknown Contacts blocks of ECQC and EWO are identical to what you would hear from his segments on TriggerTime TV. But it’s the dozens of reps that you get with other students and the various evolutions that bring the lessons home. Everyone talks up ECQC as a crucible, but it’s EWO that will physically make you spent. The 2on1 evo in ECQC can be “managed,” the 2on1 evo in EWO is a fight. All of them are great experiences and what one would want out of a course once you move on from basic pistol courses.

Craig is fantastic. I took ECQC back in 2012. I agree, the reps you get with other students are invaluable and not something that can be reproduced training solo. That was not a course I enjoyed, because it really pointed out the weaknesses in my training, but I learned a ton. I need to get back to one of his classes. Craig is one of the few guys I see on social media who is consistently putting out new and unique content rather than recycling the same old fare.

Many folks take multiple training classes every year and spend thousands of dollars *just* to hang out with “like-minded individuals” especially to go to the after class dinners and stay up late becoming drunk off of alcohol and posting on Facebook and Instagram and showing up to the next day’s shooting class hungover and/or still drunk.

I've been fortunate enough not to encounter this yet, but I've heard plenty of similar stories. Whatever floats your boat, I guess, as long as you're not being unsafe on the line. Me, I'll be chugging water before bed so I can be hydrated and focused the next day.

[Otaku.edc]

@Casey: He is in Central/South Florida in February usually. 🔥🙏

[dgg9]

It's hard enough to get anyone to take a 101 class, but the guys (and gals) who do aren't going to pay Defoor $600

$675 this year. HIS business isn't slowing down, or at least not yet.

[Robinson]

The more I learned about shooting, the more I (eventually) learned that shooting doesn't matter. Nor, for that matter does wrassling on the floor, poking people with sharp things, etc.

What matters most is get your finances in order. Get your health in order (mental and physical, and shooting *can* actually help with that, more below). Attend to your family. Spend time with your son so he doesn't become a druggie that invites people back to your house to steal your guns. Spend time with your daughter so she doesn't take up with some druggie and bring him and his friends back to your house to steal your guns. Invest in some quality health and life insurance. Probably some disability and liability too. max out your 401(k).

if someone is capable of doing all of that, maintaining a career, and *still* wants to attend some ninja classes, so be it. But I have a really hard time taking anyone seriously who claims to be at a class to learn how to "survive" when they are unlikely to survive to 50 due to neglecting all of the other shit that matters.

The other things that you say matter are things people should attend to anyway. If you have your finances squared away, do right by your family/kids, etc... then why not also do what you can to improve your proficiency in shooting and other defensive skills? I would argue that a person who keeps and bears arms for self defense has a responsibility to be proficient in their use, which comes with training and practice.

Shooting ability and hand to hand skills don't matter. Until they do. And those skill can be gained without neglecting other responsibilities.

[Ed L]

The more I learned about shooting, the more I (eventually) learned that shooting doesn't matter. Nor, for that matter does wrassling on the floor, poking people with sharp things, etc.

What matters most is get your finances in order. Get your health in order (mental and physical, and shooting *can* actually help with that, more below). Attend to your family. Spend time with your son so he doesn't become a druggie that invites people back to your house to steal your guns. Spend time with your daughter so she doesn't take up with some druggie and bring him and his friends back to your house to steal your guns. Invest in some quality health and life insurance. Probably some disability and liability too. max out your 401(k).

if someone is capable of doing all of that, maintaining a career, and *still* wants to attend some ninja classes, so be it. But I have a really hard time taking anyone seriously who claims to be at a class to learn how to "survive" when they are unlikely to survive to 50 due to neglecting all of the other shit that matters.

First, the obvious: this is pistol-forum where people congregate to talk about firearms, skills and training. Actively participating here, partaking in training, or owning guns does not in any way preclude someone from doing any of the other things you wrote about in your post. Even though things of that nature are sometimes discussed in the General Discussion section, they are not things that we tend to discuss here to the length and depth we do firearms related topics. Just like you are not going to see people posting about firearms on a forum devoted to investing in mutual funds.

All you know about most of the people here is what they post, which covers a very small part of their lives and daily existence.

A a non-smoking male over 50 years old, who lives in a decent area and has a relatively low risk life, colon cancer is a more likely cause of death than violence. But you don't see me posting that fact all the time to try to make a weak play at intellectual one-upsmanship or moral superiority in the manner that you seem to be doing every time you trot out this tired theme.

I often see you posting with contempt for gunowners and people who like to train. There is a huge irony that you post this on a gun-oriented forum--and one of the few major ones that hasn't banned you, I might add.

[43Under]

I find it interesting--though not necessarily instructive--that only two people I'm sure are instructors (Craig and @jlw) posted answers in this thread.

The rest of this is just some "I heard Fisher say...." and "I heard Vickers say...", or, worse, "I heard a guy who was in a Vickers class say that Vickers said...."

In other words, it's all (barely) educated guesswork on the part of all of us outside the circle of instructors.

Nevertheless, there were a couple of posts I thought were interesting from my perspective. @jlw mentioned always getting some sort of "nugget" from every class he takes. I'm the same way, but I find, as I take more classes, I'm less willing to spend $500, or $400, or whatever, for that "one nugget". I've averaged about 7 classes each of the last 5 years (500 hours of training in pistol, carbine, shotgun, empty hands, edged weapons, less-lethal, legal aspects of self-defense, active shooter stuff, etc.) over that time. It's getting expensive in terms of my two most precious resources: time & money. So to a large degree I'm agreeing with a lot that @Rich_Jenkins said in his post.

This year--and I'll be writing about this soon for my blog--my "training" path will take a slight turn, primarily as I am pushed by a new mentor in my life who has watched me shoot several times and told me, in almost these exact words, "Don't take another square range pistol class!" Keep in mind, I NEVER feel like I'm good enough, but he assures me I am and need to "move on" to new challenges (and he's a true BTDT guy). He literally said I'm wasting my $ at this point. Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but late this summer I was already coming to a similar conclusion about the opportunity cost involved with taking so many of the same type of classes (I can shoot "The Test", "F.A.S.T.", or whatever, anywhere for MUCH cheaper.).