A TDA day for a striker guy - Beretta LTT, PX4, and J-Frame.

[echo5charlie]

I hit the range today with three different TDA (well, one DAO) pistols - my new LTT Elite, and older PX4 Storm, and my pocket 442. I am a Glock guy wanting to learn how to run a TDA and the PX4 is my prime candidate for breaking into the art. The LTT is the end gun once I am well on the TDA road. The 442 was brought as a refresher only. This was a marksmanship only range visit with the exception of the 442.

I started with the 442 shooting some OLD 200gr LRN Remington stuff. Due to my height shots on a B27 need to be made at 15-ish yards if I am concerned that I will throw a low shot (indoor range). I fired 20 rounds total with a pause between rounds 10 and 20. From the range low ready each five shot group was against the timer set for a 3 second par. No issues keeping inside the par time. I feel that I could have gone with a 2 second par, but feelings lie and all that jazz.



At round 20 I was feeling the J-Frame recoil and called it quits. Some of those holes look like keyholes...maybe the 200gr? Moving on to the PX4.


Well, I had stoppages. I started out with about 75 rounds of 115 FMJ TulAmmo as I just wanted to get a feel for DA only shots. Everything was going well until I had a stovepipe like this pic and you'll notice an aluminum casing, more on that in a bit.



This stoppage occurred in each of the first two magazines of 10 rounds. I switched to the two factory 20 round magazines - same issue. Every magazine had one (and only one) stovepipe stoppage through the ~75 rounds of TulAmmo. Now, I have fired about 10,000 rounds of 9mm TulAmmo in the past two years through various Glock pistols with no issues other than a dud primer. So I ran the remaining 25 rounds through the LTT with no issues. OK, now I know something is likely up with the PX4.

I continued shooting the LTT but ran Federal aluminum case 115gr. It ran like a Swiss watch. I had taken advantage of the Black Friday special Langdon Tactical offered and bought a LTT with trigger job and AmeriGlo sights. I love this pistol. 4 yard DA shots on a 1 inch circle are boringly repeatable and SA shots at that distance are one-holers. I learned that if I let my grip go a bit weak I will ride the slide release on an empty mag - both a good thing and a bad thing IMO - but with the thin VZ grip panels the slide stop is like a shovel. All of this was basic marksmanship and no cool guy drills - those will come later. Anyway, back to the PX4....

After running about 200 rounds through the LTT (and LOVING every shot) I went back to the PX4 using the Federal aluminum stuff. The second magazine resulted in the previous pic - a stovepipe. I'll be honest, the remainder of my range time turned into a troubleshooting session. I began hyper focusing on my grip, where my thumb was, recoil impulse, etc. I ended up not having another stovepipe but did have a new issue present itself on the first magazine:



This occurred intermittently. It was frequent enough that I stopped picturing it. Since I was in troubleshooting mode I was only loading magazines from 2 -10 rounds at a time, with most being 5 rounds. I can say that all magazines experienced stovepipes with the TulAmmo. Only one had a stovepipe with the Federal. All magazines had failure to eject issues.

I left the range discouraged with the PX4, but beyond elated with the LTT. Are you thinking about getting an LTT? GET ONE! I have a BrigTac with the action tune and CS spring upgrade and I prefer the LTT. I'll have a straight range report on the LTT at a later date - the friggin PX4 had me focused on troubleshooting too much.

PX4 Hindsight - It was properly lubricated. The PX4 is probably having an extractor related issue. The stovepipe failures and failure to eject issues point to that. At home with a dummy round I can see that the dummy immediately begins sliding down the breech face when the round is being extracted slowly. My PX4 Compact Carry using the same dummy round does not exhibit this issue. I'm going to remove the extractor and give it a good cleaning and inspection, but right now I feel it is the culprit for the issues today. Maybe the spring? We will see.

Did I mention that the LTT rocks? Well, it does. Buy one. Seriously.

[JTQ]

I'm going to remove the extractor and give it a good cleaning and inspection, but right now I feel it is the culprit for the issues today. Maybe the spring? We will see.

The extractor very well be the issue. However, when I read this...

I am a Glock guy ...

Moving on to the PX4.

Well, I had stoppages. I started out with about 75 rounds of 115 FMJ TulAmmo as I just wanted to get a feel for DA only shots. Everything was going well until I had a stovepipe like this pic and you'll notice an aluminum casing, more on that in a bit.

PX4 Hindsight - It was properly lubricated.

The first thing I think of is a lubrication issue, as I believe the typical Glock shooter way under-lubricates everything else.

P. E. Kelley did an "Out of the Box, to Match" review of the Grand Power 45, another rotating barrel gun, where he had a few malfunctions. The factory told him to put some lube at the breech face/chamber mouth area, as those two piece are in contact and have to allow the barrel to rotate. He followed their recommendation and his problems went away.

Beginning around the 9:20 mark of the video in this thread.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....Bullet-Blaster

[Lon]

If I remember right, both TLG and EL have mentioned proper lubrication on the PX series is a must.

[echo5charlie]

The extractor very well be the issue. However, when I read this...

The first thing I think of is a lubrication issue, as I believe the typical Glock shooter way under-lubricates everything else.

P. E. Kelley did an "Out of the Box, to Match" review of the Grand Power 45, another rotating barrel gun, where he had a few malfunctions. The factory told him to put some lube at the breech face/chamber mouth area, as those two piece are in contact and have to allow the barrel to rotate. He followed their recommendation and his problems went away.

Beginning around the 9:20 mark of the video in this thread.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....Bullet-Blaster

I pulled the extractor and there was no build-up of crud that would have anyone worried. I did notice that the lube was not adequate - a thin coat was now virtually dry at this point. Cleaning, degreasing, and *proper* amounts of lube will be applied. Hopefully a quick outdoor range trip tomorrow morning before work. Of note, the dummy round still drops off the extractor as soon as the ass end clears the feed ramp area.

[LockedBreech]

As my sample of one...I have in the neighborhood of 12,000 rounds with 1 stoppage through a PX4, using brass ammo. The one time I tried a box of steel or aluminum (can't remember which) it was not a fan.

I recommend seeing if the problem still exists using brass-cased ammo. That's my PX4's taste.

[Willard]

As my sample of one...I have in the neighborhood of 12,000 rounds with 1 stoppage through a PX4, using brass ammo. The one time I tried a box of steel or aluminum (can't remember which) it was not a fan.

I recommend seeing if the problem still exists using brass-cased ammo. That's my PX4's taste.

I can recall consistent malfunctions with a SIG P220 (W. German Pre-Cohen) using aluminum cased Blazer. I stopped using them after that in any of my firearms. YMMV.

[Doc_Glock]

PX4 = lots of frequent lubrication, + hot ammo for success.

PX4C in my limited experience was less demanding.

[Canyonrat]

Great to hear your enthusiasm for the LTT Elite. They are sweet.

I am not surprised to hear you observe the Px4 is more sensitive to ammo choice. With decent ammo it should be very solid but not an eat-anything design of gun. Its interesting to see peoples economic choices, I was hesitant at dropping the coin level on an Elite with trigger job but have never even considered purchasing TulAmmo or even anything not brass-cased.

[fixer]

in the span of 2 months I've picked up 3 PX4s. (2 compacts and 1 full size 40).

All three have about 400 rounds through them give or take. 90% of the ammo has been brass. No stovepipes.


However I noticed that after years of shooting a G19 and a 92 my support hand grip will naturally slide up towards the slide lock and cause a stoppage. point being that perhaps a few of the stovepipes could be due to reduced slide velocity.

I've noticed the px4 is a bit picky with slide velocity. For example, if your hand slips off while loading a fresh mag, or you have a "lazy" slide from not getting slide all the way back, you'll get a reliable feedway stoppage. A few of your pics kind of look like that.

On another note...

steel case ammo is like the plague with a PX4. It is more related to the finish of the magazine than anything else. I think @Tamara had hell with a M&P for the same reason.

Aluminum case is much better, but not 100% either.

I've also had a half dozen instances where ammo of various types would not chamber or extract in a PX4 but run fine in the 92. I consider the 92 one of the least ammo sensitive pistols ever. A virtual garbage disposal.

My lesson learned is that the PX4 simply doesn't do well with steel case ammo.

And I'll second what others have said about lubrication--if you are mostly experienced with glocks, Beretta pistols will have a shockingly large lube requirement by comparison.

[BN]

I had steel case Wolf ammo stick in the magazine of my PX4CC. Brass ammo is flawless.