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Thread: Do rifle hollowpoints clog and fail, too? (Graphic, hunting images)

  1. #71
    Site Supporter PearTree's Avatar
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    Interesting thread. I use 308 for deer and echo what others have said, it’s unpredictable how the animal will react shooting the body regardless of caliber. This is why a long time ago I switched from body shooting deer to shooting them in the neck. I’m well into double digits of deer shot in the neck and I have a 100% drop on the spot rate going with the 308. We hunt with muzzleloaders as well and even body shots with those massive bullets at short distances are never guaranteed although the blood trail is so big a blind man could track with it. Given my experience and the size of deer I shoot I am in the camp that 556 is too small of a caliber. Even 243 is too small for my tastes because a perfect shot is required to dispatch the animal. And for reference my last deer I shot was in the 210-230 lb range.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by PearTree View Post
    Interesting thread. I use 308 for deer and echo what others have said, it’s unpredictable how the animal will react shooting the body regardless of caliber. This is why a long time ago I switched from body shooting deer to shooting them in the neck. I’m well into double digits of deer shot in the neck and I have a 100% drop on the spot rate going with the 308. We hunt with muzzleloaders as well and even body shots with those massive bullets at short distances are never guaranteed although the blood trail is so big a blind man could track with it. Given my experience and the size of deer I shoot I am in the camp that 556 is too small of a caliber. Even 243 is too small for my tastes because a perfect shot is required to dispatch the animal. And for reference my last deer I shot was in the 210-230 lb range.
    Given the opportunity, I neck-shoot deer now as well. But the opportunity is not always there.

    I like using .243, 6.5 and .308. Given the choice, I favor bullet velocity over bullet weight.
    "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master"

  3. #73
    Member TCFD273's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
    Federal stopped making their 55gr TSX LE loading, IIRC, no?
    62 grain. I prefer the lighter all copper bullets


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #74
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    Surprisingly, the deer I've killed with a .45 ACP revolver have all gone less than 30 yards, and I think that's due to a lower noise level of the shot and therefore a less excited, though still fatally wounded animal. I've seen many of these deer run a few steps and then stop, wobble and drop dead. I've also noted that other deer present will often only run 10-15 yards at the shot and this has allowed me to double on a couple of occasions (I hunt on a ranch where we're management/cull hunting). With the growing use of suppressor equipped rifles, I wonder if this may not be a positive factor in helping to recover deer because they're not as scared from shot noise and supersonic crack.
    I've read similar regarding suppressor hunting. Anecdotes of the deer just standing there, seeming to wonder what that noise was and failing to connect the noise with the fact that it's feeling some pain, maybe wondering what silent, invisible animal has attacked it, until it tips over from low blood pressure.

    Seems like would be best optimized with a subsonic round, like a 230gr HST+P through a can, like on a USP Tactical.

    Or maybe a bigger/tougher animal with a .44 cal, 325gr lead FN (a .444 Marlin light load comes to mind) going about 1050 FPS out of a suppressed 16" long gun with no cylinder gap.

    BTW, did you ever shoot your deer with Dagga Boy's Expert?
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    Not another dime.

  5. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    I've read similar regarding suppressor hunting. Anecdotes of the deer just standing there, seeming to wonder what that noise was and failing to connect the noise with the fact that it's feeling some pain, maybe wondering what silent, invisible animal has attacked it, until it tips over from low blood pressure.
    I have observed this while shooting deer with a longbow that I have. It is dead silent on release, because I've tuned some string silencers and I usa 750 grain arrow.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    Seems like would be best optimized with a subsonic round, like a 230gr HST+P through a can, like on a USP Tactical.



    BTW, did you ever shoot your deer with Dagga Boy's Expert?

    That's exactly the load I've used the most in my S&W 625 Mountain Gun (pre-lock). I've also used a 255 Keith at about 900 on several. Results have been about the same across the board: Well placed shot at ranges under 25 yards, full penetration, very short run and dead deer.
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  7. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Using .223 on deer strikes me as being either a stunt or a by product of MSR love, and I can’t imagine choosing .223 on deer for any other reason.
    Since there is a bit of thread drift going on here... I'll pitch in on this.

    With modern bullets its really not a stunt at all, unless you are hunting big bruiser deer (or other, larger game). On some of the tiny bodied Texas deer, and other smaller animals, like Antelope/Pronghorn... I'd argue that .223 is more than enough. If you choose your shots carefully, .223/5.56mm with proper bullets, is plenty for most deer. I will absolutely agree that it does limit your options on "Texas heart shots" etc... which for a lot of people isn't really a consideration, short of wounded game getting away. I don't think I'd ever take that shot on a non-wounded animal, and I'd probably be hesitant to take it on a wounded animal as well. Better to back off and let the animal bleed out for a few minutes before following up. Deer are not dangerous game.

    I've used the 70 grain Barnes TSX bullet in my own handloads to take a young, but big bodied mule deer buck. It was a running shot, and I screwed the pooch, and hit it way far back, breaking both rear hips/spine... followed up quickly with two rounds to the heart/lungs, and a 4th from a frontal angle that basically penetrated the deer front to back (30+inches), as the deer fell. Why so many shots? Well, because it wasn't dead yet, and having made the poor initial running shot, I didn't want to be tracking a wounded animal. Seeing as to how .223 from a semi-auto allows fast follow up shots, I basically "shot it to the ground". For sure not my best feat of marksmanship, but the bullets all penetrated (far above what you might expect from a .223), and judging by the wounds, expanded well. All but the first poorly placed shot would have been fatal within a minute or so, I'd say. I fired five rounds, and made four hits, three fatal, within the span of maybe 5-10 seconds. My usual hunting rifle (.30-06, 180gr Accubonds) wouldn't have fared any better on that poorly placed running shot.

    Moving on to a couple years later, I had a two tag, doe pronghorn/antelope hunt. I had found a small band several days prior to the opening day, and knew almost exactly where I'd find them that morning. Before sunrise, I made my way into the canyon/draw where they were, and slowly walked and scanned for my quarry. I stopped when I heard the buck of the band huff/snort at me, and he stood up, but didn't run. Spotting a doe bedded down on the hillside in front of me, about 150 yards out, I found a spot to go prone, and started searching for the other animals. I found a couple more, and picked one that was in a reasonable position to shoot, while it was still lying down. I put one 62gr Federal Fusion through the boiler room. She stood up, ran a few yards, then turned back and toppled over. The buck stood his ground, and I found a second doe, now standing, after I made sure the first one was down and not moving. I figured I was about to get dirty anyway, so I put another single round through that doe, and it also ran a few yards, then toppled over dead. Both were good broadside shots. Both didn't make it more than 10 yards from where they were shot. My wife was pretty upset when I went back to the trailer about 30 minutes after I had left, to tell her to get up and start breakfast... and that my hunt was over in the first minutes of the first day.

    When I hunt, I almost always take my bolt action .30-06, because I am more confident in making a longer shot, at a less than optimum angle if necessary, and in some cases, I really don't mind making a mess of the far, offside shoulder if it means I anchor the animal where it stands. But I've used .223 on deer and antelope sized game without issue, and I have sometimes chosen to take one of my AR's instead of the bolt gun. Bolt guns also carry better in the field for me, slung, or in my hands. In brushy country, and shorter ranges, I've sometimes chosen to use an AR. That said, I understand its limitations, and have passed on shooting before, when maybe I would have taken the shot with a larger caliber.

    I've said a couple of times I'd like to take a cow elk with a 75gr .223 Gold Dot or 70gr TSX... just to prove it could be done... but that is certainly bordering on a stunt. Elk have far larger and tougher bones. But I have no doubts I could, if required, cleanly take one with a smaller caliber rifle and proper bullets. Just have to get close, and pick a clean shot, like handgun hunting.

    ETA: In my state the only caliber requirement for hunting big game is that you use a centerfire cartridge firing expanding bullets. So, theoretically, you could hunt bison with a .17 Remington. It also means that 9x19 would be legal to use in a rifle/carbine.... but is not legal when fired from a handgun (does not meet the minimum ft-lbs of energy required).
    Last edited by WDR; 12-06-2018 at 11:34 PM.

  8. #78
    I am not a hunter but can offer an amusing anecdote.

    A friend's son, about 11 years old, reported killing his first deer.
    Me: "Good hunting, what did you shoot it with?"
    Kid: ".223, 64 grain Winchester."
    Me: "Good choice of bullet."
    Kid: "People usually ask me how many times I had to shoot it."
    Me: "OK, how many times?"
    Kid: "Once."
    Code Name: JET STREAM

  9. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by PearTree View Post
    Interesting thread. I use 308 for deer and echo what others have said, it’s unpredictable how the animal will react shooting the body regardless of caliber. This is why a long time ago I switched from body shooting deer to shooting them in the neck. I’m well into double digits of deer shot in the neck and I have a 100% drop on the spot rate going with the 308. We hunt with muzzleloaders as well and even body shots with those massive bullets at short distances are never guaranteed although the blood trail is so big a blind man could track with it. Given my experience and the size of deer I shoot I am in the camp that 556 is too small of a caliber. Even 243 is too small for my tastes because a perfect shot is required to dispatch the animal. And for reference my last deer I shot was in the 210-230 lb range.
    I have off-and-on shot white tail deer for about 25 years now. I have lost count of how many I have harvested in that time, but in my experience the smaller rifle calibers are more prone to fail in rapid incapacitation of the deer than larger calibers. With 5.56, even with the best loads offered today, I still find that getting white tail to drop quickly is a tricky matter. Shot angle, placement, and range need to be ideal with a precision optic. For a long time I shot white tail with an old Springfield M1903 .30-06 and generic soft points, and even with open sights and less than ideal placement/angle white tail dropped very well. My father has been hunting white tail regularly since the 1950s, and he settled on the .270 Winchester as being the ideal white tail caliber in the 1970s after using a wide variety of .25s-.30s. I would agree with my father that the happy balance for white tail(or any mammal in the 200lb range) is probably the .277 caliber +or- a few hundredths.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
    Mitght as well us FMJ then.

    It lived for 10 minutes or so, ran, bedded, ran again, maybe 75 yards total. Way worse kill than any of mine. THIS is what I'm used to for entry/exit for 70gr GMX when it does as designed.

    Attachment 32927
    Attachment 32928
    Back in the mid 80s or so when I was a teen, I accidentally shot a small spike with actual U.S.G.I M-193 (dad grabbed some from the NG unit after a qual day). I grabbed the wrong mag in the dark Thinking I had some handloaded 60 grain Partitions or some other SP.

    Colt 20in SP1 with the 1/12 twist.

    The wound looked almost like the one in your picture. Range was about 40-50 yds.

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