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Thread: Question about pointing pistol at someone

  1. #71
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    Does anyone still believe that the "vast majority" of "citizen" firearms application will be a decisive draw and fire from the holster?

    Prove it. Not saying someone can't. Just want to see it.
    I'd be curious if the Rangemaster data set has anything to offer on this point one way or the other. I'm not privy to the whole data set; I've only seen the ten summary incidents in the Rangemaster PDN video so I don't know.

  2. #72
    I seriously doubt that Tom has tracked the number of his students who have pointed a gun at someone but have not shot that person.

  3. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    So, subject to the range of different possible interactions, is it possible to define best practice, starting at the beginning of the continuum and progressing all the way to pressing the trigger?
    IMO yes. Here's an interesting way to look at a drill. How many times have you drawn your pistol in training, begun a press-out and then halted the shooting cycle? Literally stopped pressing through, and come off the trigger? That's probably something to think about and something that would benefit a person if their judgement came into question. "Your honor my client here has a training document from his regular training regimen that's co-witnessed by a fellow shooting buddy that he completed ten repetions of draw and fire followed by ten repetitions of draw and almost fire but decided not to." Has anyone thought about possibly showing documentation that you spent at least HALF of your training time trying to stop from shooting someone as you did in shooting them?

    I've been deposed four times in Federal lawsuits regarding shootings and trust me attorneys will ask questions like these. My current attorney for civil issues happens to be the same guy who sued the shit out of my agency for a college kid one of our reserves shot the piss out of in '04. Before I was a client of his we went toe-to-toe for over 40 HOURS of deposition. Fortunately, the insurance company settled with his client and it never went to trial but I can assure you that that would have been a tough case.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    How many times have you drawn your pistol in training, begun a press-out and then halted the shooting cycle?
    Interesting point; It happens to me often, usually when I'm working on my press-out. If I get to the end of my press-out without enough trigger prep, I start over.

  5. #75
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    I seriously doubt that Tom has tracked the number of his students who have pointed a gun at someone but have not shot that person.
    Based on your experience, let me ask you a question:

    Acknowledging that there are no absolutes in regards to human behavior or gunplay, do you think that the majority of people who do pull the trigger are doing so because they've tried lesser uses of force and have failed, or that either through inattention/paralysis or just because of the speed of the ambush sprung on them that they're pulling the trigger because it's the only level of force that's left to them in the moment when they realize they're under attack?

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    You know I'm developing this mentally as I interact with everyone in the thread and it's interesting to see where the thinking has gone. Let me ask everyone a question:

    Have we come to a point where we believe that we can't point a gun at someone unless we shoot them? Really?
    Not for me. I believe and teach that the decision to shoot is separate from everything that has led up to that point. All the other factors may have some impact on it, but the "go button" is pushed by itself.
    "PLAN FOR YOUR TRAINING TO BE A REFLECTION OF REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF HOPING THAT REAL LIFE WILL BE A REFLECTION OF YOUR TRAINING!"

  7. #77
    That's a tough one to answer Tim and this is strictly an anecdotal WAG, but I would trend towards the latter; Inattention and the violence of action on the aggressor's part being a key issue that disallowed a preemptive draw.

  8. #78
    I'd add my additional anecdotal experience to SN's, because that's what happened to me. I drew because I was so far behind the reaction curve that "oh shit he's gonna stab me" was all I was thinking. If I'd been more aware of my surroundings, it's quite likely I could have avoided the whole situation to begin with. Something as simple as looking out the door of my office before I left and going "oh look, a shady dude loitering in my empty parking lot for no reason, I shall stay inside until he leaves" would have prevented the whole situation.
    I shot the PX4 before it was cool.

  9. #79
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    I agree with Southnarc. Awareness and acceptance that a subject may be about to do you harm can easily trigger a pre-emptive draw, and that often resolves the situation.

    Our building is quite large, but 25 feet away is a small, unoccupied building. I came out of my building a couple of years ago and there was an adult male, 20's, standing by the door of the small vacant building, up on its porch by the door, at 10pm. There is no legitimate business he could have there at that hour. His hands were empty, so I simply told him to come down on to the parking lot, to speak with him and order him off the property. Instead, he bent down and picked up a 3" diameter, six foot long steel pipe and indicated a willingness to use it to rearrange my head. He was treated to a demonstration of the concealed presentation. At that point he dropped the pipe and we finished our conversation. Had he advanced on me with that pipe I would have shot him down, but I did not have to. Presenting to the ready was enough force to end the situation.

    I get similar reports from students frequently. If you look like you know what you're doing, and you look like you will use the gun if you have to, you will often not have to.

  10. #80
    Did he look at his watch and remark that he had somewhere else to be Tom?

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