Question about pointing pistol at someone

[zacbol]

Can't really add anything substantive to the discussion, but I'll answer anyway since the question was posed. I will also qualify this by saying I've never been in a situation where I truly thought someone was about to kill me or a loved one (in a fight? Sure) and I've never pointed a weapon at someone.

I will not draw my weapon unless I am immediate fear of my life and think shooting is the best/only solution. That means, the gun is not coming out unless I have every intention of firing. I might take grip and short-circuit the first part of the drawstroke if something is developing about which I'm unsure or have the gun in a low-ready if I heard glass crashing at 2am and the dog barking. But if I'm pointing the weapon at someone, my *plan* (and we all know what they are worth) is that I've made a shoot/no shoot decision, I'm prepping the trigger as the gun comes to extension and I'm not going to be trying to decide if I should short circuit that decision. My decision is made and I will live and die with the consequences of that choice. Could something happen where I suddenly go 'Oh, shit! I fucked up. Dontshootdontshootdontshoot." Hopefully I have the ability to stop it at that point, but that is not my *plan*. Hopefully my plan never is tested. I have no illusions about being any kind of tough guy.

[Tamara]

But if I'm pointing the weapon at someone, my *plan* (and we all know what they are worth) is that I've made a shoot/no shoot decision, I'm prepping the trigger as the gun comes to extension and I'm not going to be trying to decide if I should short circuit that decision. My decision is made and I will live and die with the consequences of that choice. Could something happen where I suddenly go 'Oh, shit! I fucked up. Dontshootdontshootdontshoot." Hopefully I have the ability to stop it at that point, but that is not my *plan*.

I swear I had my finger on the trigger, and I was trying to find the front sight (or at least a rough idea of where it was, because I was acutely aware of what a crappy shot I was), and my memory says that I was actually pressing the trigger, (but I don't entirely trust my memory on that,) when the dude realized he was running onto the muzzle of a gun and sat down hard on the hardwood floor and I thought I had shot him for a fraction of a second there (in amongst all the other stuff running through my head I distinctly remember thinking "Huh, you really don't hear the shot,") until he started scrambling and sliding on his butt towards the door and I realized the gun hadn't gone off.

[Wondering Beard]

I swear I had my finger on the trigger, [...] .

Similar for me but while learning to move indoors.

Target (they were all clothed and had objects such as fake guns, cameras, badges etc..) was almost shot; the little amount of takeup in my 1911's trigger gave me that fraction of a second to stop in time. About a minute later, still in the same scenario, I shot a target with a badge.

I don't have an answer to the original question, situations are fluid and dynamic and I'm certainly not going to say I'll do X when I have no idea what the future will bring.

[Madnik]

Interesting discussion.

"I can say with confidence that muzzling someone has probably kept me from having to shoot someone on more than one occasion."

Twice for me, and once more where I witnessed it. In each event, lethal force would have been justified the instant that the muzzling occurred. However, brief, intentional delays allowed the targets to observe the cycle of events and modify their behavior. And with that, lethal force was no longer justified or necessary. I've had some comment that I allowed people who could have been shot to have not been shot. I prefer to think of it as allowing someone who didn't need to be shot to not have been shot. And off to jail they went.

"People DO respond to "looking down the muzzle"."

Yes, they do. Not everyone all the time, but they do. And while it is not appropriate in every or even most circumstances, where it is, why not present the opportunity for people to realize the time for a positive response is right now? Oh, and while I understand that some people have more latitude in such matters, such as LEOs, I believe the logic holds true for LEOs and non-LEOs alike, so long as local laws aren't unreasonable.

[SouthNarc]

Bump. Same discussion from three years ago we're having now. Lot's of relevant points in this thread that really don't need to be re-hashed.

[Jay Cunningham]

Bump. Same discussion from three years ago we're having now. Lot's of relevant points in this thread that really don't need to be re-hashed.

I've seen this same discussion four or five times over the last few years... such is the nature of the beast.

[Mr_White]

Thanks for the bump Craig! I went back and reread the thread and it was very worthwhile.

[SouthNarc]

Thanks buddy!

[TCinVA]

That's a tough one to answer Tim and this is strictly an anecdotal WAG, but I would trend towards the latter; Inattention and the violence of action on the aggressor's part being a key issue that disallowed a preemptive draw.

I actually asked Tom Givens about this Saturday (remembering this thread, oddly enough) after class and he said something interesting I wasn't expecting. He reports that a number of his students who went on to press the trigger on a bad guy had their gun out preemptively and some even verbally warned the criminal attempting to assault them with gun in hand. As an example, he used a dude who had his draw fouled and was fussing with his weapon while the Rangemaster student made a clean draw, aimed right at the bad guy, and said "Don't do it!" but the bad guy kept trying to produce his gun. At that point the student became one of Rangemaster's ballistic success stories.

Tom said that a lot of bad guys are drunk, high, and/or just plain stupid and a chunk of the Rangemaster students produced a firearm preemptively but had to continue on to firing the weapon because the bad guy didn't stop his obnoxious behavior.

If I'm getting any of that wrong, Tom, please correct me.

I've been pondering that and drunk/high/terminally stupid seems like a pretty good explanation. Then if we consider the possibility of diminished sensory perception, task fixation, and the human animal's ability to completely miss great big chunks of what's happening while under extreme levels of stress that might round out the answer to the why question.

[fixer]

In what circumstance would an armed civilian need to point a weapon at a perceived threat and not press the trigger? …

I think a year ago I was in a situation that could have ended sooner, with less overall risk to my personal safety, if I had drawn my weapon...and done so early in the encounter.

Out for a jog. I was on the tail end of my run. Totally gassed out. I spotted the dog laying in the yard. Stupid large dog starts following me. The dog's owners were present in the yard.

I stop about half block down to manage the situation with the dog that had body language I didn't like (no tail wagging and stern looking eyes). I wave my arms, and shout. The dog doesn't back away.

Female owner drives up the block (yeah...half block away) and corrals the dog while telling me "oh he just got out...sorry about that" with all the genuine sincerity of someone who feels bad about steeping on an ant. I respond and tell her the dog didn't get out, it was loose in the yard, and you guys were watching the dog chase me down the street. I'm not cool with that, and you need to keep the dog under control.

She then goes in to ghetto mode. Male dog owner sees the exchange going on and immediately starts walking briskly up the street offering menacing body language in the all too familiar "I'm ready to fight gestures.' I see this and know a fight is coming. I raise my voice and shout "go home!".

I leave. I continue jogging down the block. I stop about another block away to turn around and see what these people were up to...to see if the were disengaging or planning/plotting. It turns out they were still in the same spot, looking at me, pointing and having a discussion. I put my hands straight in the air in the 'I surrender' gesture. I then shout "we're done here...go home."

Male dog owner takes off after me in a dead sprint. Female dog owner floors the gas and comes after me. I start jogging as fast as I could to get away. I hear tires screech around a corner. They are closing in on me. Do I draw?

Car catches me first and makes a maneuver to cut me off. I stop to again handle the situation. Male dog owner is now coming fast (and totally gassed out himself after sprinting 200 yds).

I also see a teenager running with the male dog owner. I'm at this point technically outnumbered 3 to 1.

Male dog owner is within talking distance and starts shouting at me threats of various ass beatings, racial slurs, and promises of pain and suffering.

I said " you want to handle this in a professional manner?"

"eff you puto...blah blah blah"

He closes in to where drawing my weapon would have been difficult to impossible. I could feel his breath. My feet were right at a curb so walking backward would have been tricky.

I said, " you are making me uncomfortable and threatening me. Move back." He responds "ain't a threat puto I'll kick your ass right now." Just then I notice the teenager moving in towards me. He looks ready to fight.

I put my hands out and move the guy backwards. He slaps my hands down.

I said " I'm standing right here until you leave. You do what you have to and I'll do the same."

Then I stood there looking at him.

He calmed down after 5 minutes and left with his entourage.

So in hindsight...I think I was more lucky than good. The possibilities of this situation turning out badly for me were substantial. A large part of me thinks the sight of a pistol in any ready condition would have turned all three adversaries around--fast.

However, I was super hesitant to draw my pistol. I really really didn't want to ruin my day, get into he-said-she-said, deal with the local PD, etc...I remember calculating that my line in the sand was if/when the guy throws a punch at me or worse.