Moving away from a full-size carry gun

[JBP55]

Strait R- I believe @Tom Givens student stats support the same.

We have had no private citizen shootings that required a reload and more shots after the reload. That is true.

However, we have had student shootings that required 8, 10, 10, 11, and 12 shots that I can think of right off the top of my head. We have also had 100% justified and necessary private citizen shootings at 15, 17 and 22 yards. I would not want to face a 10 shot fight with a 5 shot gun, nor would I want to try a 22 yard shot, under fire, with a j-frame.

Our lack of reloads may be due to the fact that our training stresses carrying a gun that holds at least 10 rounds. We have only had two shootings, out of over 60, that involved a j-frame. The rest involved guns that hold 12-16 rounds, like G26, G17, G19, G23, M&P, or SIG. These were used in almost all of our incidents.

I'll go on carrying a G17 and a reload.

This.

[BehindBlueI's]

You missed the whole point ... We will never know before hand and to some extent during the fight (getting back up after shot) what capacity will work.

Not what you said or what I quoted and responded to, but fine. Since it's incredibly unknowable and we've got documented cases of literally hundreds of rounds being exchanged before the job was done, what's the take away in your world view?

What you're describing is a combination of luck and gambling. It's not risk reduction/management.

Every gun fight contains elements of luck and gambling. As for the second part, I think I've addressed that ad nauseum already.

[DocGKR]

Sorry for the delay, been working...

Did any wish they didn't have their gun at all? No.

Did any actually run their gun dry and lose? No, but several instances where guns were run dry, but the fight was not lost.

Did they wish for more armor and faster backup? Yes.

For instances that went beyond 5 rounds, how many then went on to be more than 10 rounds? 15? Approximately 1/3 had 1 shot or less, 1/3 had 2-9 shots, 1/3 had more than 10 shot.

How many hits? The number of hits is all over the map, from 0% to 100%, but looked at in aggregate, most cluster in the 15%-50% range.

BehindBlueI's is good to go and I deeply value his insight and perspective.

[BehindBlueI's]

Sorry for the delay, been working...

Did any wish they didn't have their gun at all? No.

Did any actually run their gun dry and lose? No, but several instances where guns were run dry, but the fight was not lost.

Did they wish for more armor and faster backup? Yes.

For instances that went beyond 5 rounds, how many then went on to be more than 10 rounds? 15? Approximately 1/3 had 1 shot or less, 1/3 had 2-9 shots, 1/3 had more than 10 shot.

How many hits? The number of hits is all over the map, from 0% to 100%, but looked at in aggregate, most cluster in the 15%-50% range.

BehindBlueI's is good to go and I deeply value his insight and perspective.

One thing I noticed is that fights that went beyond 5 rounds usually went well beyond 5, often as far as the particular gun would allow. I also noticed that the number of hits wasn't going up to match. Like you said, they shot it dry but it didn't result in a loss. The first shot had the highest chance of hitting, the second the next highest chance of hitting, and so forth. I suspect due to a firing rate that wasn't allowing the shooter to reacquire a sight picture and due to the introduction of movement, people finding cover, distances opening up, etc.

The exception seems to be people who initially panic fire, then realize what they are doing and make the conscious decision to slow down and get on the sights. I've never seen that outside people who were trained but previously untried. The untrained just keep running it like a sewing machine in an attempt at accuracy by volume. I've heard it as the brain saying "this hasn't gotten us killed yet, so let's keep doing it because a change could be to something worse" when they lack good options the more primal parts of the brain believe in due to that lack of training.

As you say, I've also seen instances where the gun ran dry but it didn't result in a loss. That generally goes back to the earlier discussion of "rounds fired" vs "rounds needed" which often skews statistics and is difficult to suss out in many instances.

How many of the 100% hit guys went over 1-3 rounds? Well trained folks? Anything in particular they credited?

And, of course, ditto. I was a bit surprised about being taken to task for "tone" given what I perceived to be mutual respect and the fact this is well within my wheelhouse and legitimate questions I asked. Terminal ballistics, I'm deeply into "shut up and listen to DocGKR" just as much as for CQCB stuff I'm deeply into "shut up and listen to SouthNarc", etc. I'm well aware that I'm dwarfed in those arenas by SMEs such as yourselves. This, though, is well within my wheelhouse and something I've put years not only actually doing, but keeping track of so I didn't confuse anecdotes with facts. I'm well aware of the phenomena of wishing for more gun even when more gun wasn't what mattered. I wished I'd put on a helmet, but a helmet wouldn't have made any difference other than making me feel better. I certainly wished for faster backup when I shot the pitbull that got me on the forearm and the owner (who was a burglar) was MF'ing me while I had 4 shots left in my gun, but I could have been empty and it wouldn't have affected the outcome.

[Sigfan26]

I was a bit surprised about being taken to task for "tone"

I’m surprised you cared about my opinion/outlook... I feel special


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[DocGKR]

Keep in mind the subset of shooting incidents I referenced are ones where we got to speak with the involved person--in other words they were still alive to talk about the event.

Most 100% hit events were relatively close range, static events, and either:

1. the wounded individual chose to stop and immediately gave up, ending the gunfight
2. the wounded individual rapidly fled the scene and no additional shots were needed end the hostile assault
3. the wounded individual was hit in the CNS and was unable to continue fighting

A more in depth crime scene analysis vs. interview would be needed for events were the good guys received fatal wounds.

[Sigfan26]

Let's please do our best to talk more about the topic at hand and less about each other. I think that's a small, and reasonable, thing to ask.

[emoji52] sorry


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