Military Arms Channel https://youtu.be/ok5QQKtkVP0 has a video up where it stopped extracting on first trip out. Striker drag across the primer was just as bad as his first one but in the good news the spring scratches on the magazine, which incidentally is the broken spring that gave the first gun a dead trigger, are gone. 🙄Originally Posted by JBP55
Last edited by UNK; 11-27-2018 at 01:33 AM.
I'll wager you a PF dollar™ 😎
The lunatics are running the asylum
I live in Colorado Springs and over the last 3 or 4 years we seem to have escalating issues with homelessness and opioid addiction.
I'm noticing that armed robberies with multiple assailants are trending up, there are also reports of homeless people shooting each other now. Because of this I find that I'm just not comfortable with less than 10 rounds.
I used to carry an M&P Shield until I was out walking my dog one night and walked around the corner and found myself facing five tweakers. Nothing happened but I remember feeling distinctly under gunned.
There was another incident in which two guys tried to rob me in the parking lot right outside my apartment while I was getting ready to go to work one night. In that instance I was carrying an M&P 40 and two reloads and certainly didn't feel inadequately armed but it cemented in my mind the idea that if I ever have to seriously defend myself it's probably going to be against more than one person.
I make it a habit to not so much as go check the mail or take a load of laundry to the laundry room unarmed. Most of the time I'm carrying a Glock 26 with a 12 round magazine and one reload. Usually in the pocket of my shorts.
If I'm actually leaving home it's a Glock 19 and two reloads
Last edited by Cypher; 11-27-2018 at 06:12 AM.
And.....right there it is: "I just had a funny feeling...." That, Gentlemen, is probably the best thing I've read here so far. To be honest, I'm wearing out the "like" button. Great reading! Thanks to all who have posted.
Last edited by 11B10; 11-27-2018 at 07:13 AM.
Another thing to add on the initial switch. When I first went from g19 to g43 my time difference is drills was huge. My draw time was a full second slower. I have xl hands and wrapping my hand around a tiny 43 compared to a 19 at speed caused issues initially. But over the course of time and just practicing with that gun led to better draw times. My first dot torture sucked with it as did bill drills. After consistently using that one gun for awhile I’m much more confident with the 43 and have been able to shoot a better dt than I did with a g19. Yes my dt with g19 is still better than a g43 but overall I’m becoming more competent with the gun. I still struggle on the headshots of the Gabe white standards under time pressure.
Now when I pick up a g19 I’m like, wow this thing is ginormous! Shooting a j frame and a g43 has made me much better at shooting full size guns.
"Shooting is 90% mental. The rest is in your head." -Nils
CON:
#1: it's not a binary answer. For many people pulling the pistol from a pocket under stress has a higher percentage of hangups(failures) than on the waistband. For many people shooting the j-frame is more difficult under stress(they miss the target more). For many people shooting the j-frame one handed is really difficult under stress(they miss the target a lot more). For many people shooting on the move with a j-frame is more difficult(they miss the target a lot more/sometimes they don't hit it at all).
For many people they are robbed in a strong armed robbery. That means someone has a gun/knife/bat/whatever and the second person physically pressures you. They are willing to empty your pockets themselves or assault you. They don't wait for you to draw and give them the good news. During those robberies draw speed and consistency is more important. There is less time to fight through a mistake.
The above, for many people, has a cascading effect with a pocket low capacity pistol. So when they flub the draw a bit, they hurry up and shoot a bit faster and move a bit more. Things fall apart quickly when this happens.
Will you get killed on the street? I don't know. But I believe you have a higher chance of getting killed on the street with a gun in your pocket. I believe you have a higher chance of getting killed on the streets with a five shot. Will that combine to make you and your family hurt? I don't know. Fate is fickle.
PRO: With kids one of your hands may be taken up holding the child or keeping track of them, making one handed drawing and shooting more likely. Can you clear a cover garment one handed as fast as a pocket draw? Only a bit of training and a timer will tell. It's not how we feel about it.
Of course as others have said, it's not a choice between the G17 and j frame. G26 is good but a bit harder to draw from a pocket under stress.
Thinking out of the box:
I took some time to experiment with AIWB under a tucked dress shirt. I had a wedding, funeral and formal party to attend over several months. Thus I had a lot of dry practice. I was surprised how well a G19 concealed. The G26 was even easier and the G43 just disappeared.
One thing I learned from the experiment is that it was easier for my body type to grab the shirt over the back of the pistol slide to clear the cover garment. It worked so well that I use this method even with an loose untucked shirt. Missing the bottom hem of the shirt is common. Far less failure rate on grabbing the shirt over the back of the slide. Tucked in shirts tend to blouse over the pistol (with my body type) and it's easy to grab there. It also has a tendency not to rub as much on the sights. The shirts last longer before the moth sights eat a hole in it.
Lastly, if you use a holster at the waist two hand draw works great without an undershirt but could bind up the shirt with it. This is true of non stretchy shirts. But one handed draw where the cover garment can fall back over the pistol was improved with my body type with a cotton undershirt as the cover garment wanted to stay in place. With a tucked in draw and an undershirt the blouse (not a military look but the shirt not perfectly tucked in) in the back of the shirt stopped all binding while removing the cover garment. For me it truly is the best of both worlds.
ETA: If you made it this far I'm sorry. I wrote this before coffee. It's a bit more rambling even for me. LOL.
Last edited by JustOneGun; 11-27-2018 at 10:42 AM.
What you do right before you know you're going to be in a use of force incident, often determines the outcome of that use of force.
It has been my experience over many, many multiple attacker on single defender cases where capacity never played in. People run out of time before they run out of ammunition. Either the bad guys flee once the shots start being fired, or the good guy is hit before he can finish out, or some combination. Never say never, I'm sure there's incidents out there someone can trot out as the exception, but I've yet to see one. Generally the bad guys flee and when they fire they do so as a "parting gift" to help cover their escape or as a fear reaction. I *have* seen relatively well disciplined fire as the bad guys backed out. That's the exception, though, it's usually wild ass shooting, sometimes literally the gun over the head backwards, as they engage in headlong flight. One of the first type managed to hit the good guy in the elbow, disabling his gun hand, and then effected his escape. I think good guy got off 3 rounds in that one, but would have to check my spreadsheet to verify.
The single most effective defense against 3 armed attackers I think I ever saw was with a knife. Those who've attended my class have heard the story. Basically the good guy used a doorway effectively and when the bad guys approached him to rob him only one could approach him at a time. He literally gutted the first guy by dropping to a knee and swiping across the robber's abdomen with a knife, causing the bad guy's intestines to roll out. He dropped his gun and attempted to gather his guts, which took him out of the fight. The other two were apparently unwilling to step over their screaming writhing buddy to press the assault and fled. The first guy was apprehended pretty easily... Compare to a similar incident but where a bad guy was able to get behind the good guy and shot him right next to the spine after the good guy got off 2 rounds at the bad guys in front of him. The disruption to the spine dropped him, but luckily for him was temporary and he wasn't permanently paralyzed. Both food delivery guys, btw. The knife guy had previously shot and killed a robber a few years prior as well.
I think the more targets/more capacity stems from range time and competition where the targets sit there and patiently wait their turn to be shot. Nobody is fast enough to transition target to target when all 3 are willing to shoot back and aren't standing their politely waiting their turn. It's going to come down to movement, cover, dedication of the opponent to pressing the assault, and a big ass measure of luck. With multiple assailants, particularly when there's no available cover, choke points, your movement is limited, etc, remember compliance might be an option. Body language of attackers, etc. will help make that determination. Time, use of the environment, and a measure of luck remain the most significant factors, IMO.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
I am basically the same age, same family situation, same type of location as the OP.
For me: I just find I can carry a G19 AIWB with a t-shirt and concealabiltiy and comfort is not an issue so that’s pretty much all I do all the time.. I like one gun that does it all. No fuss, no muss....
If I had trouble carrying a g19 I would go with something like a Walther PPS with 8 round mags. If I’m not carrying the 19 I probably am in a situation where I would not carry a pocket carry either.
Alright gents, thanks for all the thoughts and feedback so far. I went to the range over lunch today to put some of this to the test. I've been wanting to see what I could do on the @Mr_White exercises with the J-frame, so that's where I started. I made the following modifications:
Bill Drill - 5 rounds instead of 6
4 body, 2 head - 3 body, 2 head. Wanting to keep the difficulty of the 2 head shots (plus those being the more effective shots for a "stop" scenario).
I did not modify the times. Based on the difficulty of shooting the J-frame, I decided one less round was probably a wash. Maybe we can disagree and there should be some kind of a reduction in the par times.
Starting position: I shot the whole exercise from hand in pocket, on-gun. To me, this is one of the HUGE advantages of pocket-carrying a J-frame is that I can be chilling out in the checkout line or pumping gas with my hands in my pockets and a full firing grip on the gun without alerting anyone that that's what I'm doing.
Not bad overall. Would earn a Dark Pin. That's what I earned in class with Gabe shooting my 17 from SS IWB concealment as described in the OP. Also, I've put many, many thousands of rounds through Glocks in general, and my G17's in particular. Today's range session brings my lifetime total rounds through J-frames to probably 175 with 150 being through this gun.
Next, I put a vertical 3x5 at 25 yards and fired 2 cylinders at it in fairly rapid succession (maybe 1 round per second ROF):
Finally I decided to try the "hands relaxed at sides" draw from the pocket to head shots at 7yds. These times were obviously longer than firing grip start. I started getting faster by the 5th rep, but also started degrading accuracy. Realistically with some practice (and perhaps a holster mod) I believe I can get it to about 2 sec (-1 denotes in the head area, but outside the 4" circle):
Overall I'm not disappointed with this performance. There are certainly more factors to consider beyond how well you can shoot 5 rounds at static paper with a pistol, but I don't think the J-frame is this "unshootable mystery" for me.
Last edited by ASH556; 11-27-2018 at 02:10 PM.
Food Court Apprentice
Semper Paratus certified AR15 armorer
Good shooting dude. That’s impressive.
“There is no growth in the comfort zone.”--Jocko Willink
"You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
Nice! I like how you modified those tests. I think I'll do the same thing next time I'm at the range.
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