De facto registry?

[CG12]

I am interested to hear folk's opinions on the potential use of Form 4473 as a de facto registry. From a very basic perspective, we have your name, address, and firearm make/model/serial number in one convenient location in the hands of (or accessible by) the federal government. We observe insidious policies creeping into our hazy view of the future: hundreds of extreme-risk protective orders and the potential for the expansion of legal confiscation due to mental health assessments, ideas of social media checks being floated in left-leaning states, and so on. Many contributors to this website have written about opposition to any form of registration, citing historical examples of civilian massacre. If we travel down the road to what-if land, finding ourselves on the path to a leftist dystopia, how useful do you think 4473s would be in the efforts to disarm a populace? I could envision a scenario in which an authority would serve you a letter informing you that you are linked to a set of purchases, and if the items are not forthcoming, you will face crippling financial penalties. While there may not exist an actual registry, per se, it seems as though all the ingredients are available.

Putting aside the logistical issues associated with the sheer number of firearms in the hands of the public and their varying states of documentation, what concerns do you have with 4473s? Or are you quite pleased with them? What are your thoughts?

[jetfire]

I am interested to hear folk's opinions on the potential use of Form 4473 as a de facto registry. From a very basic perspective, we have your name, address, and firearm make/model/serial number in one convenient location in the hands of (or accessible by) the federal government. We observe insidious policies creeping into our hazy view of the future: hundreds of extreme-risk protective orders and the potential for the expansion of legal confiscation due to mental health assessments, ideas of social media checks being floated in left-leaning states, and so on. Many contributors to this website have written about opposition to any form of registration, citing historical examples of civilian massacre. If we travel down the road to what-if land, finding ourselves on the path to a leftist dystopia, how useful do you think 4473s would be in the efforts to disarm a populace? I could envision a scenario in which an authority would serve you a letter informing you that you are linked to a set of purchases, and if the items are not forthcoming, you will face crippling financial penalties. While there may not exist an actual registry, per se, it seems as though all the ingredients are available.

Putting aside the logistical issues associated with the sheer number of firearms in the hands of the public and their varying states of documentation, what concerns do you have with 4473s? Or are you quite pleased with them? What are your thoughts?

Everyone wave at the undercover fed!

[CG12]

Everyone wave at the undercover fed!

You're half right.

[jetfire]

You're half right.

Oh shit it’s the cops, cheez it!

[CG12]

Oh shit it’s the cops, cheez it!

Now you're all wrong. Regardless, this is a topic that has seen discussion elsewhere on this forum and I don't think anything I've asked could be construed as entrapment of any kind. These are good questions, in my opinion.

[Hambo]

what concerns do you have with 4473s?

I liked them when they were yellow.

[jetfire]

Now you're all wrong. Regardless, this is a topic that has seen discussion elsewhere on this forum and I don't think anything I've asked could be construed as entrapment of any kind. These are good questions, in my opinion.

That’s exactly what a cop would say...

I’m just fucking with you, FYI. On the actual topic, I’ve been an FFL holder and in charge of compliance in the past. Let me tell you, the average shop’s 4473s are SUCH a mess of dog dicks that any usefulness as a de facto registry is completely gone the minute the gun walks out the door.

I used to respond to trace requests all the time, and it was like this: ATF sends me a trace request for a Taurus PT111, I send them the 4473 of whomever it got sold to, and then local PD go visit that guy only to find out that SHOCKER it was stolen/fell off a boat/disappeared into a cloud of smoke, and no sir officer, does he have any idea how it got into the hands of the notorious criminal.

[JRB]

I am interested to hear folk's opinions on the potential use of Form 4473 as a de facto registry. From a very basic perspective, we have your name, address, and firearm make/model/serial number in one convenient location in the hands of (or accessible by) the federal government. We observe insidious policies creeping into our hazy view of the future: hundreds of extreme-risk protective orders and the potential for the expansion of legal confiscation due to mental health assessments, ideas of social media checks being floated in left-leaning states, and so on. Many contributors to this website have written about opposition to any form of registration, citing historical examples of civilian massacre. If we travel down the road to what-if land, finding ourselves on the path to a leftist dystopia, how useful do you think 4473s would be in the efforts to disarm a populace? I could envision a scenario in which an authority would serve you a letter informing you that you are linked to a set of purchases, and if the items are not forthcoming, you will face crippling financial penalties. While there may not exist an actual registry, per se, it seems as though all the ingredients are available.

Putting aside the logistical issues associated with the sheer number of firearms in the hands of the public and their varying states of documentation, what concerns do you have with 4473s? Or are you quite pleased with them? What are your thoughts?

It's pretty simple. If armed people are coming to my doorstep and demanding that I hand over all of my guns - they're not going to do so based on characteristics (NFA, evil looking semi auto rifle, etc) exact numbers or SN's they'll just know I'm a gun owner and they'll expect an emptied safe and everything else, regardless of whether or not it was on a 4473. So effectively, if you've bought ONE firearm on a 4473 there's a remote, but non-zero chance of that being used to ID you as a gun owner and thus you'll get a visit demanding that you empty your safe if the politics swing hard enough that way. Any idiot will know that a partial confiscation based on characteristics will NOT happen because those scoped deer rifles that aren't so evil looking will doubtlessly get re-purposed soon afterward.

Personally, I think there are more than enough folks that have off the books firearms in off the books locations that engaging in such an activity, whether a 'take them all' or 'take the naughty ones' operation, would prove to be incredibly perilous to the lives of all involved.

Ultimately it's much more effective and popular in the long run to keep nibbling away and restrict every little thing they can as often as they can. That way, the creeping frustration of dealing with it all uses those basic behavioral engineering principles to discourage the behavior/action of keeping and buying guns, ergo less and less people buy guns. Eventually less and less people own guns and less and less people advocate for their right to own guns. Eventually a tipping point is reached where a full-on ban or confiscation is practical and any violent resistance will be isolated, small, and easily dealt with and easily painted as acts of evil. Then yay only the bad guys and cops have guns just like all of those other happy peaceful places on earth where there's no crime and everything is hunky dory (yes, that's sarcasm).


The answer? Buy all the guns you want and obey every law, stupid or otherwise, to a T. Teach kids and young adults to shoot. Instill that desire to be self sufficient, capable, and responsible. Make them into responsible and fully lawful gun owners so that there's one more model citizen out there that will speak up to defend our right to keep and bear arms.
The more lawful gun owners there are, the more push there will be for our representatives to write and pass legislation that makes our lives collectively easier and more enjoyable as responsible gun owners.
That's why I absolutely resent gun owners that sneer at the folks stuck in Cali, Colorado, NY, etc - and won't do business with them or otherwise make it harder for folks 'behind the lines' to enjoy our common hobby and lifestyle. We should be bending over backwards to support them so they can continue to enjoy shooting, continue to be LAWFUL gun owners, and continue to bring more folks to our side - and here's the real catch - bring them to our side on firearms *regardless of their other political beliefs*.

If we can make 2A rights a cherished aspect of being an American regardless of other politics, we win. We will ALWAYS be fighting the same battle any other way.

So fill out those 4473's, obey the law, buy all the ammo you can reasonably store and afford, shoot often, introduce people to the sport, and keep your powder dry just in case it all goes sideways.

[Hambo]

These are good questions, in my opinion.

In my opinion they're silly. If you've bought more than one handgun at a time ATF already has paper on you. In my case they can start with my 03 FFL and skip the tour of local gun shops.

[CG12]

I used to respond to trace requests all the time, and it was like this: ATF sends me a trace request for a Taurus PT111, I send them the 4473 of whomever it got sold to, and then local PD go visit that guy only to find out that SHOCKER it was stolen/fell off a boat/disappeared into a cloud of smoke, and no sir officer, does he have any idea how it got into the hands of the notorious criminal.

What I'm getting from this is that the gov't requested the record, you gave them the record, and they showed up at the house. That doesn't sound like it has no usefulness at all.

So fill out those 4473's, obey the law, buy all the ammo you can reasonably store and afford, shoot often, introduce people to the sport, and keep your powder dry just in case it all goes sideways.

Thanks for your input.