Guns, cops, and dancing in bars

[Totem Polar]

I’ll fess up: I am torn between clear memories of agent FBI McBackflip on one hand, and this report of 6 unarmed officers in the country bar in CA from the most recent active killer atrocity.

Once again, Encylopedia Brown Ellifritz delivers food for thought:

http://www.activeresponsetraining.ne...inking-alcohol

"Well, in the California shooting, the killer stopped shooting during the attack to post updates on Facebook and Instagram. While the killer had his head down in his phone, a prepared cop may have been able to cut his throat or disarm him with a reasonably sized folding knife."

Discuss.

(As an aside, this one cuts close to home, as I’ve learned that a close friend and colleague from music school plays that particular bar regularly. On another night, he could have been there, front and center).

[HCountyGuy]

I don’t think simply ingesting alcohol should deprive one of their right to the most potent tool for self-defense. That being said, getting drunk while carrying a firearm is a stupid decision. If someone wants to have a single beer and they’re in no way impaired, they’re still good to go in my eyes.

Personally I’m not a fan of bars as they fall under the “stupid places” category. A bunch of typically inebriated individuals in a confined space, some of whom are competing to mate, is just a recipe for unpleasantness. Just being in a bar shouldn’t mean one has to forfeit carrying a firearm though. What if that person isn’t there to drink? I’ve been to some bars just to hang out with friends or see a band and never had a drop of alcohol pass my lips.

If you want to go to a bar while carrying and have a drink, knock yourself out (not literally). Though I think we can agree it’s not an ideal practice, I still say that person has the same right to self-defense as somebody sitting at home pounding back PBRs.

[Bigghoss]

Last I checked, here in Colorado you can carry in a bar and even drink, you just can't be drunk. I make a habit of not carrying if I'm going to be drinking at all though.

[Erick Gelhaus]

For working cops it is going to depend on state law, agency policy, and what the establishment says about carrying. Some agencies forbid any alcohol if armed, some say you can't be impaired if carrying.

[HCM]

So Agency policy and CCW law can often be two seperate issues. Being an LEO does not mean giving up your rights but it’s a complicated issue.

In free America cops can also hold CCW licenses and some can choose to carry on this in lieu of their credentials off duty. Some states, like NY will not issue CHL /CCW licenses to active LEOs. State laws and agency policy may claim that one is an LEO at all times. Reality is even those who don’t face this issue will get scrutiny from their agency whether they were carrying on their credentials or on a CHL/CCW.

Many agency policies allow officers to carry in bars but do not allow them to drink while carrying, whether in a bar or not.

Conversely, some states CCW laws or issuing agency policies prohibit drinking while carrying, others, like TX prohibit carrying in bars on your LTC and some apply the DUI/DWI bac standard to carrying. As I recall one state is .08 bac for DWI and .10 bac for CCW.

In past years among LE the designated driver was also the designated bodyguard / shooter.” I wonder how much the ease of ride sharing services like Uber and Lyft have eliminated this practice ?

[AMC]

Local laws and agency policy are the deciding factor here. More and more agencies are adopting "best practices" of not allowing officers to imbibe if carrying...and most cops are frankly okay with that, because far more get hammered at bars regularly than even carry occasionally. I remember constantly being warned by other cops not to carry off duty....because then you'd REALLY be in trouble when you got deuced or got into a drunken brawl. Yeah....it wasn't the drunken stupidity that got you nailed...it was carrying off duty.

Our policy basically prohibits drinking while carrying, by setting a .01 BAC. Fine by me...I'd rather be armed than smashed. I drink at home...alone....in the dark.

[ssb]

At least here, possession of a handgun while under the influence is itself a crime (separate from violating a no guns sign assuming you've got a CCW permit). "Under the influence" =/= per se DUI according to case law, though it's vague beyond that (I'd guess that its requirements mirror the "clearness of mind" language from the general DUI statute, but there's nothing that explicitly does that in the statute). It may also have an effect on our statutory stand your ground law (which has a requirement that a defender not be engaged in criminal activity) -- which could add a duty to retreat before using force.

I personally won't be drinking in a bar with my gun on the off chance somebody shoots the place up.

[blues]

I came across that article this morning. It's a tough one.

When I was still on the job, it was the norm for me to carry while I was out on a crawl with the guys. Thankfully, it never ended up being an issue. I don't know that it was a great idea but it was what pretty much everyone did back then.

Now, being retired, here in NC where I can carry under LEOSA or license, there is zero tolerance, so forewarned is forearmed:

May not carry:

While consuming
alcohol or while
alcohol or controlled
substance is in the
blood

[CWM11B]

In NC you can carry in a bar on a CCH, but you cannot consume ANY quantity of alcohol. Not one sip or you have broken the law. Same goes for cops carrying on their creds. In NC a cop stops being a cop once outside their territorial jurisdiction and must follow the same rules for defense of self and others as a private citizen. Another weird quirk in our law: You cannot open carry in an establishment that sells and serves alcohol, but you can consume alcohol while OC. Can CCH in said establishment, but illegal to consume.
My take: Just because you can, doesnt mean you should. You may come out on top, and even be vindicated in court, but it is going to cost a lot of money to rebut your alcohol use prior to using lawful deadly force. My rule is simple- if I am going to drink, I'm unarmed.

Im going to disagree with the author on his point about nothing being worse than the bad guy killing folks because you were unarmed. If you have reduced reaction time and cognitive skills due to the alcohol and you zip an innocent person while trying to help, I would say that is worse. At best it is compounding the problem.

Bearing arms and self defense is a right, and I'm prepared to go down defending both, but they also carry tremendous responsibility and a maturity most adults used to posess. Wanting to drink and carry, in my view, is irresponsible and shows a lack of maturity. You cant have your cake and eat it too.

[Totem Polar]

What about being in a bar, but not drinking?