10-Round 9mm Pistol

[HCM]

As far as how many rounds do you need in your gun goes, Jeff Cooper once said "how often do you miss?" The correlation between wasted shots and rounds in the gun is a noticeable trend in law enforcement as we have transitioned from wheel guns to high capacity semiautos which also have the luxury of letting you know when the gun is empty. There is indeed a psychological link between how many rounds you "think" you have to play with, and how quickly you deplete that ammo, aimed shots or not(more often, "not"). Many officers waste full magazines trying to skip rounds off pavement, or shoot through concealment or cover with virtually no effect. These techniques very rarely pay off, and are hardly ever worth the waste of ammo. If you are a scholar of OISs, you will often find that most field officers only hit meat around 25% of the time, and most of those are not vital hits. In fact, the FBI 9mm Justification(The Liability Mitigation Document) stated that officers miss around 70-80% of the time. However, you're looking at a very wide array of field personnel with varying skill and athletic ability. Once you narrow the criteria to SWAT officers, or officers with advanced firearms training or competition experience the hit ration is the exact opposition with about a 75% hit rate. Practice, and skill trump magazine capacity every time. I am perfectly comfortable using a 10+1 .45 in a wonder 9 world.

When it comes to gun law, best practice is to obey the law. When it comes to using deadly force for self defense, you better have every aspect of your case as clean as possible. If you won't do it for yourself, do it for your family. These things end up hammering families financially and emotionally for many years.

This is a great example of “shooting” mindset vs “fighting with a gun” mindset. It is based on expectations of what your fight will or won’t be. In a fight 1) expect nothing - it’s gonna be what it’s gonna be and 2) in a fight, bullets are opportunities.

The studies you cite are largely the result of minimal training standards and poor emotional control. The latter being more significant.

When you study “average officer” OIS you don’t see officers unsuccessfully trying advanced techniques like skipping rounds or shooting through cover / concealment. Rather you see is an initial burst of basically unarmed fire resulting from a panic response then you see a divergence, some officers continue to panic fire till slide lock, others observe their initial burst was ineffective, regain emotional control and deliver effective hits.

Officers who are better trained, or just have better emotional control, will follow their training and deliver effective hits if the situation allows.

If you are in a gun fight, as opposed to a shooting, fire superiority is a thing. We don’t like the term suppressive fire in LE/ civilian parlance but “directed fire.” (The functional equivilent) is a thing if your opponent has cover and is shooting back.

This shooting involving the Louisville KY PD in April 2018 illustrates the differences in emotional control perfectly. Both officers are armed with standard Glocks. Compare the controlled response of Officer 2 (who returns fire through his windshield) to the panic response of officer 3 who fired 17 rounds.

https://www.courier-journal.com/stor...age/550519002/

[Galbraith]

This is a great example of “shooting” mindset vs “fighting with a gun” mindset. It is based on expectations of what your fight will or won’t be. In a fight 1) expect nothing - it’s gonna be what it’s gonna be and 2) in a fight, bullets are opportunities.

The studies you cite are largely the result of minimal training standards and poor emotional control. The latter being more significant.

When you study “average officer” OIS you don’t see officers unsuccessfully trying advanced techniques like skipping rounds or shooting through cover / concealment. Rather you see is an initial burst of basically unarmed fire resulting from a panic response then you see a divergence, some officers continue to panic fire till slide lock, others observe their initial burst was ineffective, regain emotional control and deliver effective hits.

Officers who are better trained, or just have better emotional control, will follow their training and deliver effective hits if the situation allows.

If you are in a gun fight, as opposed to a shooting, fire superiority is a thing. We don’t like the term suppressive fire in LE/ civilian parlance but “directed fire.” (The functional equivilent) is a thing if your opponent has cover and is shooting back.

All very true. The "panicked" response would be very indicative of the Kyle Dinkheller shooting. Officers with more advanced training and gun handling tend to be more comfortable under stress than those who struggle with the dynamics of the skill.

[HCM]

All very true. The "panicked" response would be very indicative of the Kyle Dinkheller shooting. Officers with more advanced training and gun handling tend to be more comfortable under stress than those who struggle with the dynamics of the skill.

Skill builds confidence which helps emotional control.

The contrast between officers 1 and 2 vs the response of officer 3 illustrates exactly what I am talking about.

[Robinson]

They make a WIley Clapp govt 9mm ?

No.

[Tyrok]

First I must say this is an awesome thread.

I was looking at the custom pistols in the first post (the G19's chopped for G26 mags but retaining the G19 back strap for a full grip), and was wondering if you could accomplish this in the reverse order using Gen4 19 backstraps on a G26.

Does anyone know if the G19 backstraps will snap onto a G26? Or are their backstrap angles too different to work together?

[TheRoland]

This is a great example of “shooting” mindset vs “fighting with a gun” mindset. It is based on expectations of what your fight will or won’t be. In a fight 1) expect nothing - it’s gonna be what it’s gonna be and 2) in a fight, bullets are opportunities.

The studies you cite are largely the result of minimal training standards and poor emotional control. The latter being more significant.

When you study “average officer” OIS you don’t see officers unsuccessfully trying advanced techniques like skipping rounds or shooting through cover / concealment. Rather you see is an initial burst of basically unarmed fire resulting from a panic response then you see a divergence, some officers continue to panic fire till slide lock, others observe their initial burst was ineffective, regain emotional control and deliver effective hits.

Officers who are better trained, or just have better emotional control, will follow their training and deliver effective hits if the situation allows.

If you are in a gun fight, as opposed to a shooting, fire superiority is a thing. We don’t like the term suppressive fire in LE/ civilian parlance but “directed fire.” (The functional equivilent) is a thing if your opponent has cover and is shooting back.

This shooting involving the Louisville KY PD in April 2018 illustrates the differences in emotional control perfectly. Both officers are armed with standard Glocks. Compare the controlled response of Officer 2 (who returns fire through his windshield) to the panic response of officer 3 who fired 17 rounds.

https://www.courier-journal.com/stor...age/550519002/

I don't often disagree with you, but you're comparing Officer 3 (who was in a gunfight with a man trying to kill him) with an officer who shot a man who, while a threat to Officer 3, was very clearly already hit and on the ground and was facing the other way. It's easy to be calm when you've achieved complete tactical superiority.

[Cypher]

Nope.

Scenario One: fictional Country of Antigunistan, which has no ex post facto clause:

From the beginning of time until Nov 1st 2018, 15 round magazines have been legal to own. The evil czar takes control of government, and in his plan to destroy gun culture in Antigunistan, he passes a law on Nov 1st that makes it illegal to own 15 round magazines. In addition, he retroactively criminalizes the possession of 15 round magazines prior to November 1st, even before the ban went into place. He throws you in jail, because even though you properly disposed of your 15 round magazines to the authorities on October 28th in anticipation of the law, you are still in violation of the retroactive criminalization, having possessed 15 round mags at all.


Scenario Two: United States of America, which has ex post facto protections:

From the beginning of time until Nov 1st, 2018, 15 round magazines have been legal to own. The evil czar of Antigunistan was actually born in America, and after living here for so many years he gets elected President. He hits up congress for a hardcore anti-gun bill, which criminalizes the possession of 15 round magazines. Due to ex post facto protections, the Czar and Congress can not retroactively criminalize the ownership of 15 round mags prior to Nov 1st...they can only criminalize the possession of 15 round mags (including ones you bought prior to the law going into effect) after November 1st.

Well that sucks.

[HCM]

I don't often disagree with you, but you're comparing Officer 3 (who was in a gunfight with a man trying to kill him) with an officer who shot a man who, while a threat to Officer 3, was very clearly already hit and on the ground and was facing the other way. It's easy to be calm when you've achieved complete tactical superiority.

Yes, but no. It is still a matter of emotional control.

Along those lines, if I recall correctly it subsequently turned out Officer 3 was NOT actually shot. Not the first time this has happened although it is more common for combatants to be shot and not realize it.

I have not worked with these specific officers but I have both trained and worked with “Officer 3 types” and “Officer 2 types.” Reverse the roles and put the Officer 2 type in the intial gun fight you will see a a much more controlled and effective response from The Officer 2 type. In fact it would Likely be a much shorter and less interesting video.

Here is an example of another “Officer 2 type” a Denver Officer who was actually hot and did an exemplary job of maintaining emotional control and following his training.

[zpelletier]

Thread back from the dead I know, but there’s tons of threads covering this and I didn’t want to start another one. I tried to google this and couldn’t find any answers, has there been testing done on newer Glock 10 round magazines? Like in the past year or since Gen5 came out? Or are the magazines exactly the same and not worth testing? Glock seems to be an idea platform choice considering reliability, parts availability, etc but that all goes out the window if there are no reliable 10 round magazines.

[OlongJohnson]

That's the direction I was thinking. As a TX resident, I have no experience, other than an engineer's habit of reading material data. Loctite's web site is pretty good.

The thing that sucks about a permanent solution like that is the inability to strip a mag to clean it. But it's better than no mag, I guess. And at least Glock mags aren't H&K mags...

If I was going to do that, I'd think along the lines of replicating a G26 mag internally, but with a G17/19 mag body, if that works. I'd probably glue the block in first, verify function, and then cross drill through the block and mag and glue in some dowels. That would both make darn sure nothing came apart for function and be belt-and-suspenders on no possibility of illegal reassembly.

Heck, now I'm curious. Maybe I'll try it just to prove it out. I could test with my G34.

Does anyone know the polymer material identity for OE Glock mags?

This looks like a reasonable summary:

http://www.magazineblocks.com/magento/faq

And the product they're selling:

http://www.magazineblocks.com/magent...10-17-9mm.html

I've had a chance to think about this more since writing the above:

Standard Glock mags can be limited. Short explanation is, make an internal floorplate and rivet it to the mag body with flush/countersunk pop rivets, so that the internal length is the same as a G26. The spring, follower and rounds then just think they're in a G26 mag. A little bit of fab work, but easy for people who can do it.

If you escape or the law gets changed, you can drill them out. But the fact that you have to cut metal to increase the capacity makes the solution GTG in most places with restrictions.