"Red flag" firearm confiscation ends in death

[GuanoLoco]

There’s an awful lot of trust in the reasonableness of the system and processes being cited.

Then again, reasonable people hve a lot of good reasons to NOT trust the system, trebly so in geographies where the political leaders have an anti-2A axe to grind.

I’m not really the trusting type in this regard. If a system can be abused, it will be abused - both by acusers and those in positions of authority whio have an agenda.

To be honest, I’d rather take my chances with the nut cases than abuses of the system. An individual has a better chance of defending one’s self against the former.

[Mjolnir]

There’s an awful lot of trust in the reasonableness of the system and processes being cited.

Then again, reasonable people hve a lot of good reasons to NOT trust the system, trebly so in geographies where the political leaders have an anti-2A axe to grind.

I’m not really the trusting type in this regard. If a system can be abused, it will be abused - both by acusers and those in positions of authority whio have an agenda.

To be honest, I’d rather take my chances with the nut cases than abuses of the system. An individual has a better chance of defending one’s self against the former.

Now THIS... is a reasonable post.

Spoken like a TRUE American.


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[fixer]

The whole red flag thing is an incredibly sharp double edged sword, but I’m certain neither side will ever abuse it. And I’m sure there are stiff penalties for making false claims that will deter folks from lying or some stuff like that.

I’m not very partial to the whole idea that one side gets to make a claim and someone’s rights are stripped away. It seem like there might be something fishy about that. Kind of like needing to prove innocence or something.

However, given the absolute lack of a mental health system in the USA that can adequately deal with the crazies we seem to have running about, I’m not sure how to better address the issue in the short term. It seems incredibly retarded to dump mental health issues on LEO. Cause IMO by that time things have gotten out of hand. It would be nicer if there were ways and places that could help folks with their mental issues before they escalate to the point of needing LEO intervention. Maybe even if folks took an interest earlier in the process... But hey, what do I know.

I have yet to see the final version of the proposed TX, so I can’t comment on whether I like it. I would hope these laws have due process protections built in that don’t require further costly legal action to get property back after being shown to be innocent (memories of asset forfeitures and cash seizure of years past). I’d also like to see measures that a falsely accused person can take against their accusers to recoup any $$ and generate some punitive measures against false claims.

Almost word for word this is where I'm at.

This legislation looks almost certain either state or federal. I think the issues you mention need to be seriously considered.

Not to be glib or flippant but considering the absolute idiocy being elected; considering the clown show-meets-dumpster-fire politicians and congress we currently have; considering the insanely partisan environment we live in--there is absolutely no way one can ensure these red flag or erpos are going to be applied fairly. And if the results are not what was desired, the law will be expanded--your neighbor, your co worker, an online poster...can trigger one of these. Soon enough the language you use, deemed hate speech, or gender biased, will be used to adjudicate you as a mental defective not able to be trusted with weapons. This legislation has a huge potential for bias.


So the intent of the laws are sound. There needs to be, as you mention, the due process and I'd argue extreme countermeasures for false accusations.

[Crazy Dane]

I have ridden both sides this double edge all the way to the pointy tip. Way back when the ex kicked me out her lawyer talked her into doing a 50B, a protection order. When the local sheriffs deputy came to serve that order I was required to surrender any firearm or go to jail. Since I didn't want to ride any where with him I gave up my guns. As soon as he left I went straight to a lawyer who was able to build a case against her and poke that 50b full of holes, yes it did cost me $1200. We had the hearing 3 weeks later at 10:00 am, by 3:00 pm I had all of my guns back in my possession with an apology from the sheriff. The take away here is that it is easy to debunk false claims especially if you are smart and don't make any reason to doubt other wise.


A few years ago dad started to get sick with dementia and was ok right up till the point he wasn't. Almost over night the paranoia kicked in and everyone was trying to steal from him. No amount of talking on my side could get through to him. I talked with DSS and they sent some one out and he would not let them in and dad still had enough wits to fool them into thinking I was over reacting. The Sheriffs department went out talked with him and found no reasons to do anything but they did not go in to his house. He finally took a shot at my uncle and I was able to get an involuntary commitment done. The doctors ended up sending him to a short term mental hospital and I was able to get all of his guns while he was there. From there we got him in an assisted living facility which in short order he manipulated a VA doctor that he had never seen before in to letting him go back home. When he left his health and living conditions continued to spiral out of control and I was working with DSS and other agencies to get him help. It took almost another year to get him the help he needed. He is in a locked memory care unit now and I am the devil. In the long term, a judge finally ruled him incompetent and gave the officially order to get his guns. During that time I had committed a felony by stealing his guns and if I didn't have a couple of good Sheriffs on my side I would have went to jail. He was reporting to them that I had stole his guns amongst other things. When I went to get his guns, I found that he had 3 pistols loaded and placed for a quick easy grab. He had 2 shotguns and 3 rifles standing around the kitchen door, 2 of the rifles had spent brass in the chamber. Who did he shoot at besides my uncle? He had another shot gun and rifle in the bathroom, loaded. This is the reason that the red flag laws are being written and if I had the ability to use that, I would have and would have been better off for doing it.

[NETim]

Almost word for word this is where I'm at.

This legislation looks almost certain either state or federal. I think the issues you mention need to be seriously considered.

Not to be glib or flippant but considering the absolute idiocy being elected; considering the clown show-meets-dumpster-fire politicians and congress we currently have; considering the insanely partisan environment we live in--there is absolutely no way one can ensure these red flag or erpos are going to be applied fairly. And if the results are not what was desired, the law will be expanded--your neighbor, your co worker, an online poster...can trigger one of these. Soon enough the language you use, deemed hate speech, or gender biased, will be used to adjudicate you as a mental defective not able to be trusted with weapons. This legislation has a huge potential for bias.


So the intent of the laws are sound. There needs to be, as you mention, the due process and I'd argue extreme countermeasures for false accusations.

I'd want the ability to financially destroy any who launch false accusations. Red flag laws have the potential to be massively abused. There has to be built in deterrence for those making accusations with malicious intent.

[Old Man Winter]

I have ridden both sides this double edge all the way to the pointy tip. Way back when the ex kicked me out her lawyer talked her into doing a 50B, a protection order. When the local sheriffs deputy came to serve that order I was required to surrender any firearm or go to jail. Since I didn't want to ride any where with him I gave up my guns. As soon as he left I went straight to a lawyer who was able to build a case against her and poke that 50b full of holes, yes it did cost me $1200. We had the hearing 3 weeks later at 10:00 am, by 3:00 pm I had all of my guns back in my possession with an apology from the sheriff. The take away here is that it is easy to debunk false claims especially if you are smart and don't make any reason to doubt other wise.

How's that go if you weren't in a position to retain a lawyer for $1200?

[fwrun]

I'd want the ability to financially destroy any who launch false accusations. Red flag laws have the potential to be massively abused. There has to be built in deterrence for those making accusations with malicious intent.

That’s assuming they have finances to destroy. I’m certain there will be some kind of “good faith” protection sewn in.

[Borderland]

Here's the WA ERPO law if anyone is interested. I think I read somewhere that it's been used seven times already in about 2 years. There is a penalty for using it maliciously without cause. Gross misdemeanor I believe.

https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=7.94

We're all gun control happy here. Our dumbshit governor thinks he has a chance to become president. That right there tells me he doesn't have both oars in the water.

[Mystery]

Situation can escalate and people get killed.
Whether it's a simple traffic stop, drunk family member, mentally ill, violent robbery or in this case, red flag alert, when things escalate with one party (sometimes both) always armed with a firearm, bad things happen.
Doesn't matter what the call was for.

[Zincwarrior]

I'd want the ability to financially destroy any who launch false accusations. Red flag laws have the potential to be massively abused. There has to be built in deterrence for those making accusations with malicious intent.

At the same time, arguments can't be made that we need to focus on healthcare if laws designed to remove firearms from people who need healthcare are then attacked. Can't have it both ways.