Your Line in the Sand

[ToddG]

re: "fighting words" etc., as the statute quoted pointed out there is almost always an exception for someone who makes a good faith effort to disengage once lethal violence becomes imminent. I'm still not aware of any case where someone said some bad words and, when his "victim" pulled a gun/knife, it was found illegal for him to defend himself.

re: line in the sand/"BE A MAN" ... Folks, come on. We're better than that. If you personally think that it's your job to play Robin Hood to every damsel in distress, or you believe that your only responsibility in life is to get home to your fridge full of Budweiser, say so, explain why, and move on. Let's not get so stupid as to question one another's penis size over these things.

There was a recent case of an ATF agent shot and killed by an off duty police officer in NY. The ATF agent was present during an armed robbery of a convenience store and tried to intercede as the robber exited the store. In the process, he ended up rolling around on the ground, gun out, with the criminal. The off duty cop saw them wrestling over the gun and tried to pull the guy on top (ATF agent) off the guy on bottom. Unfortunately, off duty cop had his snubbie in his hand and his finger on the trigger, and as he grabbed at the guy on top he had a sympathetic muscle contraction, firing a round basically from armpit to armpit, killing the ATF agent.

The bad guy, prior to wrestling for the ATF agent's gun, was armed with an airsoft pistol or something like that.

The ATF agent's wife and daughter were inside the convenience store and saw the whole thing.

I think we can all understand the impulse to stop the criminal. I think we can also all understand that given a choice, neither that widow nor her now fatherless daughter probably think it was worth it.

The point is that sometimes good guys doing good things pay a price. Whether you are willing to pay that price or not is a personal decision, and not something that makes you better or worse, more or less "manly," than others. For every person who says it makes him braver, there's someone else who'll say it just makes him more of a glory hound. Etc.

So express your own feelings and expectations of yourself without pointing fingers at everyone else. Thank you.

[SouthNarc]

to those that ask "have you ever drawn a gun on another" there is a lot of people that have never and in hopes never will but it the heat of the moment they have to may they find the strength and wisdom to do the right thing when necessary.

Actually I think I was the only one who asked the question just to be clear about it. And well.......I certainly hope they do the right thing too.

[Nephrology]

Just wanted to thank those who have participated in this conversation politely and informatively, particularly the SMEs. I have no well informed opinion on intervention on behalf of a 3rd party except that I like the idea and fear the reality. I have a lot of thinking to do on the matter.

[JodyH]

I'm curious about the experience base of everyone posting. Who has ever actually pointed a gun at another human being with the intention of shooting them if need be?

I've been on the losing end of having a gun pointed at me, and took home the trophy (bullet and scar).
As a result of that I now have one "line in the sand" that I will not willingly let someone who means me harm cross.

[GA_Jeff]

As everyone here knows, carrying a pistol for self defense carries with it grave responsibility. Choices you make with that weapon can and will change your life and the life of those involved with your decision forever. That being said, does everyone have a clearly drawn line that they will not cross when it comes to implementing deadly force into self defense?

Too many gray areas to try and make this black & white. Sure, protecting yourself and or your loved once a life-threatening situation...that's B&W. However it gets gray when you decide to take on a role of protector to strangers, etc. You see a man with a knife toward a woman in an ally, shoot him dead, and next thing you know...she's testifying against you for killing her boyfriend. Just an exaggerated example, but you get the idea.

I won't go into the details, but several years ago I was involved in an incident. I intervened when I saw a man throw a woman to the ground in a store. He was much bigger, but I managed to get him in a choke hold. I was unarmed. Long story, short...I was ushered away with great thanks by the woman. The reason...she didn't want me getting sued. Point being, you can think you're completely in the "right" and still end up spending lots of money trying to keep yourself out of trouble and or prevent yourself from losing your shirt.

[SouthNarc]

I did not even watch that video because it does not matter.

Actually you probably should watch the video because it really does matter. And if you do watch the video do you still stand by these "lines in the sand" that you've posted about?

I have made a personal choice not to use deadly force in the defense of a third party. In today's litigious society, it just does not make sense to me. My choice stems partly from the fact that every single law abiding citizen in the state of TN has the privelige of obtaing an HCP and carrying a weapon. If someone is not enlighted enough to realize that safety and self defense are a personal responsibility and not the LEO's than I do not feel I should be responsble for them. I am sure many will disagree, but that is my stance and I will adhere to it.

I will not compromise myself or my family because of their stupidity.

I will not use leathal force unless I feel that I or those in my care are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm

So the question I'd like to ask you is if that were you in the video that was posted and you were watching a man stab a downed woman over and over, literally ten feet away from you and you had no family with you to watch over would you still not intervene and shoot that guy? If not, then okay you truly have drawn a line in the sand.

However, watching people make these remarks reminds me of the same remarks I see made regarding "everyone get's shot who comes in my house". Sounds good until it's a shit scared 17 year old kid who's come in through your window because he thinks that the hot cheerleader lives there when he actually has the wrong house.

It all sounds cool until you actually have to do it. Not saying YOU can't. But most regular people have not been exposed to the kind of REAL ambiguity that ALOT of these events are underscored by. MOST people I see in the training community have never even POINTED a gun at another human being much less have the absolute moral certainty and self awareness to be able to walk away from a woman being stabbed to death.

There's a reason this community is called pistol-forum.com and not decision-making.com. Shooting is just a small part of it and the benchmarks of a real street tactician are adaptability and flexibility.

10mm please don't think I'm picking on you or trying to single you out in particular because I don't mean to be harsh. It's an interesting debate to me and gives me insight into the student base as an instructor.

[barstoolguru]

However, watching people make these remarks reminds me of the same remarks I see made regarding "everyone get's shot who comes in my house". Sounds good until it's a shit scared 17 year old kid who's come in through your window because he thinks that the hot cheerleader lives there when he actually has the wrong house.

I just hope he has a good grip on that thing the thinks he's going to stick in that hot cheerleader because I will blow it off. thats his problem for picking the wrong house for one and two for not ringing the doorbell like 'a man". I for one am not going to wait and see if it's some kid at the wrong house or someone there to steal and kill the home owners

we heard that crap before and I can prove it... here. "he was a good boy" and "he was there going to see his girl friend"... no he was there to steal !!

if it don't come up this is the title
Black Teen Killed Attemping Burglary - Mom Says: It's Normal

[SouthNarc]

I just hope he has a good grip on that thing the thinks he's going to stick in that hot cheerleader because I will blow it off. thats his problem for picking the wrong house for one and two for not ringing the doorbell like 'a man". I for one am not going to wait and see if it's some kid at the wrong house or someone there to steal and kill the home owners

Roger that and keep on keepin' on'.

[TCinVA]

I just hope he has a good grip on that thing the thinks he's going to stick in that hot cheerleader because I will blow it off. thats his problem for picking the wrong house for one and two for not ringing the doorbell like 'a man".

If that's your home defense plan, you should probably come up with a much better way to explain it to the police should you ever put it into practice.

YMMV, offers void where prohibited or taxed, etc.

[Johnkard]

One morning, a charming housewife in her 50's was jarred awake at 4:00 in the morning by a soft noise echoing through the length of the house. Her husband was out on a long assignment on an air-force base in New Mexico, and the combination of extreme quite and cold air had formed a delicate combination that put every nerve in her being on edge. She left her room with a robe, and baseball bat, edging forward through the small ranch style home, the silence around her broken only by the same soft rustling that had woken her. As she reached the end of the hallway, kitchen door ajar, she was sure, someone else was in the house. Adrenaline surged through her small frame, fueled by memories of a bloody war in her home country, just as the rustling stopped and light footsteps came closer to the door. The young intruder leaned carefully through the doorway oblivious of his terrified observer, and turned to face her just as her swing connected with his shoulder.

"Oh my god, MOM IT'S ME. OWW!"

My grandmother was a fierce German woman, and her swing left a huge purple bruise across my father's upper back. If she had been carrying a gun instead of a bat, I would not exist. (whatever you may think, I'm happy she wasn't into guns.)

Unless you are immune to fear, and unaffected by adrenaline, you should NOT trust yourself to make life or death decisions under fire. Your methods and training must be 100% consistent if you carry a gun, because even one mistake in ten thousand can lead to the death of an innocent. If you are so self centered that you can discount any number of dead innocents based on ambiguous circumstances, why not get started right now. Kill your neighbors, kill your friends, more beer money for you right? "well society doesn't allow that sort of bullshit" neither does society allow you to shoot unarmed idiots sneaking into your house. You might not go to jail, but you will be forever branded as the incalculably stupid redneck who shot a defenseless kid. Don't be that guy, train hard, and don't let your third leg control your trigger finger.


My question:

Has anyone here ever intentionally killed a person?


If the answer is yes, and you're willing to talk about it, your opinion may be the most important content yielded by this thread.