Big Army Soliciting for new 9mm SMG (Sub Compact Weapon - SCW)

[JHC]

While the SFABs might find them useful for some applications, we have distorted the market in shooting people through the GWOT. We have fielded so much body armor to our partners and taught them the value of force protection that even when we as trainers are not jocked up, there are partners in the area providing overwatch. Those overwatch personnel are all too often the people that turn on you. Infiltrators like it because they have an excuse to be jocked up around US personnel who are not.

This potential that threat will be wearing armor, and we field all kinds to them including some that is just pistol rated, makes a pistol caliber PDW less than ideal.

+1 yes I think the SFABs and/or others have identified some applications. I wouldn't be surprised if we had our own overwatch also that would have rifles +. Might not be an all this or all that question. And overwatch of the action going down inside a GP Medium could mean solve it there inside the tent.

IDK. And We DK. Adding the logistics for .300 BO across units spanning different continents is a big deal.

[El Cid]

Adding the logistics for .300 BO across units spanning different continents is a big deal.

Let's also not forget we are talking about big Army. It won't take 5 minutes before someone tries to load 300BLK into a 5.56 rifle and it goes kaboom if we have both calibers in the field. Specialized units are one thing, but from a safety perspective I'd be worried to have large conventional units (in any branch of service) mixing rifles that look identical and some take 5.56 while some take the 300BLK. I've seen professionals load the wrong ammo into pistols and SMG's (9, 40, etc.). Most soldiers will be able to tell the difference between rifle rounds and 9mm.

[JRB]

Let's also not forget we are talking about big Army. It won't take 5 minutes before someone tries to load 300BLK into a 5.56 rifle and it goes kaboom if we have both calibers in the field. Specialized units are one thing, but from a safety perspective I'd be worried to have large conventional units (in any branch of service) mixing rifles that look identical and some take 5.56 while some take the 300BLK. I've seen professionals load the wrong ammo into pistols and SMG's (9, 40, etc.). Most soldiers will be able to tell the difference between rifle rounds and 9mm.

In my limited understanding, it takes some bullet setback to chamber a 300BLK in a 5.56, so in most cases it would at least initially fail to go into battery. So unless SPC Derp starting bashing the forward assist, it's somewhat safe from an instant surprise kaboom. Getting SPC Derp to pay attention to the safety briefing before that range event, though...
That's exactly why we will never see use of 300BLK in line units or anywhere outside of very specialized trigger-puller sorts of organizations.

Hell, there's embarrassingly large parts of the Army that still have ancient beat up first-gen M4's and even M16A2's. So there's bigger problems with rifles for the rank and file.

[alohadoug]

Let's examine the recent shooting involving the Commanding General of US and NATO Forces in Afghanistan (https://www.stripes.com/news/top-us-...neral-1.552355). GEN Miller and the Brigadier General Smiley, Commander of NATO mission South were meeting with the Chief of Police and Intelligence Chief in Kandahar on 18 October. Though all individuals had PSD's, none of the PSD's were armed with long guns, sidearms only out of a sign of respect and trust. All US/NATO principals were wearing body armor. The locals don't typically wear armor. One of the Afghan's PSD's drew his sidearm and engaged the principals. The two Afghan principals were killed, BG Smiley was wondered along with another NATO officer. Reports say BG Smiley's vest stopped at least one round. The shooter was killed by US PSD's. GEN Miller is a former JSOC and SOCOM CG with a long history of Special Operations experience. Some reports have GEN Miller in the room, even standing next to the Afghans. It seems the Afghans were the primary targets (the CoP was a virulent anti-Taliban). Same reports say GEN Miller drew his sidearm.

Too often, for political reasons, PSD's don't/aren't authorized to carry long guns into meetings or during certain situations. CENTCOM has identified a need for a "concealable" firearm that offers more than a typical sidearm. Either in capacity, stability (i.e. stock or "brace"), or in burst/automatic. Would a Mk18 or equivalent make more tactical/lethality-sense, sure. But we operate in an environment where political/appearance counts too.

[JRB]

Let's examine the recent shooting involving the Commanding General of US and NATO Forces in Afghanistan (https://www.stripes.com/news/top-us-...neral-1.552355). GEN Miller and the Brigadier General Smiley, Commander of NATO mission South were meeting with the Chief of Police and Intelligence Chief in Kandahar on 18 October. Though all individuals had PSD's, none of the PSD's were armed with long guns, sidearms only out of a sign of respect and trust. All US/NATO principals were wearing body armor. The locals don't typically wear armor. One of the Afghan's PSD's drew his sidearm and engaged the principals. The two Afghan principals were killed, BG Smiley was wondered along with another NATO officer. Reports say BG Smiley's vest stopped at least one round. The shooter was killed by US PSD's. GEN Miller is a former JSOC and SOCOM CG with a long history of Special Operations experience. Some reports have GEN Miller in the room, even standing next to the Afghans. It seems the Afghans were the primary targets (the CoP was a virulent anti-Taliban). Same reports say GEN Miller drew his sidearm.

Too often, for political reasons, PSD's don't/aren't authorized to carry long guns into meetings or during certain situations. CENTCOM has identified a need for a "concealable" firearm that offers more than a typical sidearm. Either in capacity, stability (i.e. stock or "brace"), or in burst/automatic. Would a Mk18 or equivalent make more tactical/lethality-sense, sure. But we operate in an environment where political/appearance counts too.

I read that whole report, and others too of that incident.

I'd be citing that and rolling in full kit to everything for the foreseeable future. Every time we get brazenly attacked and that attack takes advantage of a visible weakness, we refuse to visibly harden ourselves let alone retaliate decisively.
Which our adversaries only perceive as weakness, and emboldens them further. It's been that way since the Beirut bombing and it continues to happen.
It's way above my lane, and it's likely that I'm just a dumb NCO - but I'm getting goddamn sick of seeing our military spill blood needlessly because of bullshit appearances or politics.

[psalms144.1]

I'll only add the following to this - anyone who thinks that the SMGs in question are "easily concealable" in standard PSD attire is sorely mistaken. If we REALLY want to have portable, concealable, handgun caliber automatic weapon to increase "firepower" for PSDs, we ought to look at something like the G18 with a folding stock. Anything significantly larger than that is going to be concealed carried off-body, in a bag of some sort, meaning it won't be IMMEDIATELY available in an ambush like the recent attack in Afghanistan.

Of course, I'm just a guy who RAN high-level DOD PSDs for more than seven years, including PSDs traveling throughout all the various theaters of conflict, so what do I know...

[El Cid]

I'll only add the following to this - anyone who thinks that the SMGs in question are "easily concealable" in standard PSD attire is sorely mistaken. If we REALLY want to have portable, concealable, handgun caliber automatic weapon to increase "firepower" for PSDs, we ought to look at something like the G18 with a folding stock. Anything significantly larger than that is going to be concealed carried off-body, in a bag of some sort, meaning it won't be IMMEDIATELY available in an ambush like the recent attack in Afghanistan.

Of course, I'm just a guy who RAN high-level DOD PSDs for more than seven years, including PSDs traveling throughout all the various theaters of conflict, so what do I know...

Clearly your time machine is not working... lol! Isn't spray and pray a viable technique in that part of the world?

[Chemsoldier]

I am fairly certain Chuck Norris is considered a Destructive Device...

[TGS]

MAC made this video a week ago about the B&T MP9, which I think is a sweet little SMG specifically made for protection.

Specific to the Army's use, B&T makes a functional shoulder holster for it that deploys the stock upon drawing, which is a much quicker deployment than a long gun from a bag. And even if you aren't wearing a garment that can hide this (my agency used to wear UZIs on shoulder rigs under our suits, so IDK why that isn't possible), it can still fit into a much smaller and more inconspicuous bag than a folded Mk18-sized gun, which requires a Vertx Gamut sized backpack. So, you can take it more places, and also deploy it quicker.

I don't think there's any single 1 right answer to PSD long guns, like Mk18 or bust. With the MP9 and a foldable 5.56/300 (Mk18+ LAW, MCX, HK416, etc) then I think you are covering your bases really well compared to only having one or the other.

JHC had brought up the possibility of this contract also being influenced by needs of the SFABs and a need for something greater than a pistol for green on blue. Note, in addition to the shoulder holster, B&T also markets both a belt and thigh holster for this. It would fit that insider threat role perfectly......and not just for SFABs, while also giving PSDs another option. Pics below, including its use as a PDW by the Portuguese.



Shoulder rig:


Belt holster:


Thigh rig with Portuguese:

[El Cid]

Interesting design. I know I was getting crushed with emails for their suppressed 9mm platform. I guess they were trying to clear old inventory before revealing this?

http://jerkingthetrigger.com/2018/11...ompact-weapon/