But SMG’s can just as easily have an optic as a pistol. And you get the 3rd anchor point of a stock. While I’d choose a rifle caliber long gun over a PCC, I would choose a PCC over a handgun.Originally Posted by Hambo
But SMG’s can just as easily have an optic as a pistol. And you get the 3rd anchor point of a stock. While I’d choose a rifle caliber long gun over a PCC, I would choose a PCC over a handgun.
I'd choose the pistol and something in 5.56.
"Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA
Beware of my temper, and the dog that I've found...
The point is this isn't a binary decision - pistol or PCC - for the Army. They can have whatever they want. The PCC/SMG makes NO sense in this context - yet another "good idea fairy" dropping out of the sky on the heads of the taxpayers. The PSDs in question already have access to M4s and Mk18s.
This is like the Pentagon Police procuring a bunch of HK UMPs in .40 S&W - why? Just use standard available equipment and be done with it.
I wasn’t justifying the Army’s decision. Just saying in response to Hambo’s post that a PCC is better than a handgun even with an optic and 20rd mag.
As would I. That’s not what I was saying. You referenced a handgun with optic and extended mag as being a better choice than your MP-5. If my options were a pistol or SMG/PCC I’m going with the shoulder mounted option.
AFAIK, PFPA isn't in the regular military supply chain since they're a civilian agency...they don't have "standard available equipment" like AFOSI automatically gets M11s from big brother, a given base's PMO gets M9s, or SOCOM automatically gets M4s and has to pay "extra" out of unit funds to procure the Mk16.
At the time when they purchased the UMP, that was just as standard a decision for them to make as would have been purchasing any other gun. As was their Glock 23 duty gun, LWRC M6 carbines for ERT and MP7 for PSDs.
Last edited by TGS; 10-27-2018 at 04:23 PM.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
Even "civilian agencies" in the DOD (like mine) have access to any DOD standard equipment. PFPA was stood up in a hurry by a bunch of guys from outside DOD, and they brought their background and equipment "expertise" with them.
In a similar vein, my agency issues a nearly universally disliked pistol and caliber because a "civilian leader" decided that we were going to get kilt on da streetz if we hadn't switched to the .40, which, you know, knocks people out of their shoes when you shoot AT them...
I could go on for AGES about this stuff, having witnessed it up close and personal for the last 18+ years as a DOD civilian, but, it's just too depressing.
Like this whole idea of a new 9mm SMG...
I realize this is PF so we focus on small arms but any limited issue of SMGs is "budget dust" to Big Army. One big conference costs more than this whole SMG line item. All the more reason to just buy whatever is already vetted. As far as "special" units, they will carry whatever they want anyway.
If I were betting, I'd bet they have a legitimate need for a concealable/discreet weapon that provides a lot more capability than a pistol in protective detail roles or any number of low vis work.
I can imagine the SFABs alone might have a great need for having this capability when they don't want to be seen going all "guardian angel" jocked up with armor and M4s.
Using SOF for protective details on a wide scale across all the places the SFABs will be functioning would be an order of magnitude bigger waste of resources.
The lethality of a low vis team armed with a SMG will be a lot greater than with pistols. It's not likely they have time and resources to get everyone on a 100K rounds a year diet of ammo like a SMU.
If the worry is attackers wearing armor; if it's plate armor, and that's the fear, I don't know that .300 BO is a magic bullet. And most of the threat won't be armored.
Again, for the expanse of territory in the M.E., South Asia, and Africa where these units will be operating, the logistics of stocking .300 BO in the volumes needed may be dumber.
It wouldn't surprise me if somebody knows exactly what they're doing.
“Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais
While the SFABs might find them useful for some applications, we have distorted the market in shooting people through the GWOT. We have fielded so much body armor to our partners and taught them the value of force protection that even when we as trainers are not jocked up, there are partners in the area providing overwatch. Those overwatch personnel are all too often the people that turn on you. Infiltrators like it because they have an excuse to be jocked up around US personnel who are not.
This potential that threat will be wearing armor, and we field all kinds to them including some that is just pistol rated, makes a pistol caliber PDW less than ideal.
Hoping not to show my ignorance, I'll comment. In various places including where I grew up I had many occasions to shoot submachine guns. The old school ones were heavy. Today that's probably changed. How small can the package be made before the weapon is too small to be effective? I don't know, but it seems to me that the end result will be a six or seven pound product that still is cumbersome to carry in a discreet manner. We already are aware of pistol caliber limitations. So the next step up then is an even larger weapon. I'm having trouble visualizing the niche for this weapon. I do wonder why that if there is an unmet need, why we have not purchased and issued the desired weapons. Perhaps we have.
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