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Thread: Big Army Soliciting for new 9mm SMG (Sub Compact Weapon - SCW)

  1. #21
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    As someone ran on a .mil PSD for a principal who spent a lot of time in harms way for about 5 years, I think this is a piss poor idea and a HUGE waste of resources. Reasons:

    1. Size/weight. A pistol caliber SMG is always going to be so large and heavy that it will NOT be carried by the principal as a matter of course. For detail members, the size and weight will dictate it generally being carried in a concealed "bag" of some sort (backpack, sling bag, whatever), meaning it will be GENERALLY available, but not IMMEDIATELY available. In protection, you dance with the girl that brung you - RARELY is there time to "gear up" after things get dicy. We had access to MP5KNs, side folding PDW stocks, and, IIRC, they came out of the armory TWICE in 5 years of CONUS and OCONUS use - because they were just not worth the effort. If the weapon is going to be carried openly, a Mk18 makes INFINITELY better sense.

    2. Performance. No matter how "cool" the 9mm SMG is (and I DEARLY loved my MP5...), it's still a large, heavy handgun, shooting handgun rounds very quickly. That means limited armor penetration, limited range, etc. Again, existing solutions in 5.56mm (Mk18 or the dearly departed Mk16 with CQB barrel) offer SIGNIFICANT increases in performance. If we're going to spend the money to develop something "new," let's get something WORTH THE INVESTMENT. Some of the teeny tiny 300BO "PDWs" come to mind...

  2. #22
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    We had access to MP5KNs, side folding PDW stocks, and, IIRC, they came out of the armory TWICE in 5 years of CONUS and OCONUS use - because they were just not worth the effort.
    Why? We've carried long guns in bags as a matter of regular practice for a long time. Even if it's an SMG, that still gives you much more ammo, greater accuracy, and greater volume of fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    Some of the teeny tiny 300BO "PDWs" come to mind...
    Hear hear!
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  3. #23
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Why? We've carried long guns in bags as a matter of regular practice for a long time. Even if it's an SMG, that still gives you much more ammo, greater accuracy, and greater volume of fire.
    Because our Mk16s with stocks folded fit in the same size bag as our MP5s...

  4. #24
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    Because our Mk16s with stocks folded fit in the same size bag as our MP5s...
    Ahhhhhhhh, gotcha.

    For whatever reason I was thinking you only had the SMG as the long gun and were just opting to not bring a long gun at all.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  5. #25
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    My bad, should have been clearer. Only a very few instances where we took SMGs over Carbines...

  6. #26
    I don't understand this fascination today with SMGs when options like Q's "Honey Badger" and Noveske's "Ghetto Blaster" are available. Can't imagine that .300 Blackout couldn't be made readily available for the end users of these things. It's got to be much better out of a VSBR than 5.56 is. But I'm not looking for a promotion to O-7, followed by a lucrative post retirement gig at SIG or FN.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jfpatch View Post
    I don't understand this fascination today with SMGs when options like Q's "Honey Badger" and Noveske's "Ghetto Blaster" are available. Can't imagine that .300 Blackout couldn't be made readily available for the end users of these things. It's got to be much better out of a VSBR than 5.56 is. But I'm not looking for a promotion to O-7, followed by a lucrative post retirement gig at SIG or FN.
    The only justification I can think of is logistics, I.e. the availability of 9mm “in the system” and OCONUS.

  8. #28
    Site Supporter Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    The only justification I can think of is logistics, I.e. the availability of 9mm “in the system” and OCONUS.
    Yep. The group requesting the Rattler had a need for a SBR with good intermediate barrier penetration capability (think cars) while still being concealable under clothing. The 300blk with 110 grain TAC-TX does that better than 9mm (or 5.56 for that matter) out of an equivalent length barrel at the expense of ammo and parts availability. This is a niche gun for very specific tasks. I would not want to be the one or two guys with a 300blk SBR if my job were to defend the Benghazi compound against hundreds of video protestors.
    I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.

  9. #29
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Even if it's an SMG, that still gives you much more ammo, greater accuracy, and greater volume of fire.
    When I was on the SWAT team I was also shooting USPSA. I remember watching a dude with an open class, optic equipped, 20-some round magizine pistol and wondering why I was carrying a much heavier, no optic, MP5 with a few more rounds at work. At that time there was no way to make a reliable LE/mil comp gun, but now there is. Just saying.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    Yep. The group requesting the Rattler had a need for a SBR with good intermediate barrier penetration capability (think cars) while still being concealable under clothing. The 300blk with 110 grain TAC-TX does that better than 9mm (or 5.56 for that matter) out of an equivalent length barrel at the expense of ammo and parts availability. This is a niche gun for very specific tasks. I would not want to be the one or two guys with a 300blk SBR if my job were to defend the Benghazi compound against hundreds of video protestors.
    I see what you did there.

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