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Thread: Big Army Soliciting for new 9mm SMG (Sub Compact Weapon - SCW)

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    If your telling me I need a concealable sub gun in 9mm I’ll take the HK MP5 PDW please. Hell I’ll take an MP5 with a retractable stock.
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  2. #12
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    I predict that Sig is going to win this one.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
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  3. #13
    Beretta 93? Oh, wait, we aren't buying Berettas any more.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    I predict that Sig is going to win this one.
    They have a good shot. The controls / layout is AR/ M-4 format.

    The MPX has passsed testing with DHS/ICE and the Navy/ Crane/SOCCOM was playing with them a while back.

  5. #15
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    But there's a host of nice PDW stocks and similarly compact AR setups. Troy's M7 system is an off the shelf option that puts it in an SMG equivalent sizing. If these PSD's will be limited to duty issue ammo like M855A1 and M882 ball, I'll take the M855A1 any day of the week because the M882 has known and very real limitations in terminal effect on target. The M855A1 isn't much better, especially from a 7-10in barrel, but it is without question substantially more effective than M882 ball. The overpenetration talk is misguided at best, and if the PSD's aren't limited to duty ammo, why not run effective duty-loaded 5.56 on our PSD's?
    Attackers overseas are much more likely to be wearing body armor, so a 5.56 or even SCHV PDW such as the MP7 is a good route over 9mm.

    You raise a good point with ammo. Speer Gold Dot G2 is currently in use with pointy-tipped units, and as I understand it the MHS contract also included the procurement of a standard issue JHP. I hope that these should be available for use by PSDs as they are legally in a gray area; DOD gets away with using military personnel for PSDs stateside on some legally tenuous grounds....so I'm sure they could play the same sleeve of cards (if needed) to use JHPs overseas. Given we all know how everything makes sense in Big Gov, I don't want to assume that either of these two ammunition options would be available to the details, however.

    With that said, I wouldn't lose any sleep using a 9mm SMG, particularly in domestic assignments. I'd be perfectly content with a Brugger and Thomet MP9, actually.

    When we get outside the envelope of a B&T MP9, I can't really think of a reason to purposely issue an SMG over COTS 5.56 weapons. The newest generation of DD Mk18s we're using are just as light, very svelte, and recoil about the same as a .22. The only thing that would make them better is if we had LAW adapters, or an original design with a folding stock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Friday View Post
    You're killin' my 80s action movie vibe man.
    Following the Navy Yard shooting, the NCIS protection office in DC decided they needed more long guns. They received a shipment of Colt SMGs, which from what I've been told were never removed from the crates....they just waited until more MP5s showed up.
    Last edited by TGS; 10-23-2018 at 10:21 PM.
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  6. #16
    Site Supporter Sensei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    This is interesting for a few reasons. The image shown is a very short bbl AR, but we know the media seldom gets the gun pic correct. They are soliciting for a new PDW/SMG and it must use 9x19 ammunition.

    https://www.foxnews.com/tech/army-se...le-machine-gun

    ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *************************

    Soldiers may soon have a covertly-carried, powerful machine gun to defend Americans who are at high risk from enemy attacks.

    The new weapon would significantly boost the amount of firepower soldiers have at their fingertips to respond to a threat against individuals who are particularly attractive targets to terrorists, for example.

    The threat to high-profile targets was highlighted recently when U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Smiley was wounded in a Taliban attack in Afghanistan’s Kandahar province.

    While the weapon eyed by the military will deliver a more muscular response than those that tend to be carried on Protective Security Details, the goal is for the new beast to minimize collateral damage.

    Dubbed the “Sub Compact Weapon,” this Army initiative aims to produce a smart, ultra-compact design for specific missions. This is essential because it means soldiers can be armed with a discreet and easy-to-conceal weapon. It also enables a soldier to be fast and agile to stop any threat.

    ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** **************************

    What's sad is the myths that refuse to die. I don't know if this is from the Fox News reporter, or an Army document, but I laughed at this statement:
    "Opting for 9mm rounds rather than 5.56mm could assist in reducing overpenetration and thus collateral damage."
    Quote Originally Posted by JRB View Post
    Hypothetically speaking, most of this is true. I absolutely love SMG's because they're fun as hell to shoot - I actually own a transferable UZI because of 80's movie nostalgia, ease of maintenance, and ease of shooting.

    But there's a host of nice PDW stocks and similarly compact AR setups. Troy's M7 system is an off the shelf option that puts it in an SMG equivalent sizing. If these PSD's will be limited to duty issue ammo like M855A1 and M882 ball, I'll take the M855A1 any day of the week because the M882 has known and very real limitations in terminal effect on target. The M855A1 isn't much better, especially from a 7-10in barrel, but it is without question substantially more effective than M882 ball. The overpenetration talk is misguided at best, and if the PSD's aren't limited to duty ammo, why not run effective duty-loaded 5.56 on our PSD's?

    And if our top brass is worth defending with good ammo with a properly designed projectile, why can't the rest of us in uniform use it to have better results on bad guys?

    IMHO, this is all a dog and pony show clusterfuck and a few Generals will enjoy PSD's toting new toys they can idly talk about with the gaggle of killhat CSM's and Flappy Birds they roll with.
    The article’s picture and content make me think that the authors are conflating different RFPs. What is pictured is not an AR but the Sig MCX Rattler in 300blk. It was specifically designed by Sig around a SOCOM RFP for a ultra-compact PDW to be used on high-value person security details.

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone...ifle-in-combat

    The contract specified a 300blk upper receiver that could be adapted to existing M4 lowers (the MCX has an adaptor) with a folding stock option that collapsed down to a mere 15 inches (26” stock extended). Sig responded with a 5.5” 1:5 twist 300blk upper that is designed to be fired unsuppressed. Supposedly, CAG has a few of these and have paired them with the 110 grain Barnes TAC-TX seen here:

    Name:  8C05D44B-C822-4589-B65D-91740EFD59D6.jpg
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    Although that 5.5” barrel length seems short, it still sends those 110 grain pills down range at about 1800-1900 fps. The TAC-TX expands down to 1400 fps or well beyond 100 yards. Couple this terminal performance with the ability to defeat soft armor and the Rattler upper puts an MP5K to shame.
    Last edited by Sensei; 10-24-2018 at 12:08 AM.
    I like my rifles like my women - short, light, fast, brown, and suppressed.

  7. #17
    Doing some mild research and noticed B&T has a new version of the APC9 (called the APC9-G). It takes Glock 9mm mags and you can use any AR style pistol grip. If I can get this as an SBR, throw a short can on it, I'm all over it!

    https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...g-bt-apc9-pro/

    https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/b...ke-glock-mags/

    And while I agree a PCC will not do the same work as a rifle caliber SBR... this thing would be much easier to take places that the shortest 5.56 or 300BLK platforms will go. And since I carry a Glock 9mm already...

  8. #18
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    What is the origin of such proposals? For example, do Army and Marine Corps generals sit around and brain storm? Do top dogs ask grunt nco's for suggestions?
    The question sounds naïve. Perhaps I am.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    What is the origin of such proposals? For example, do Army and Marine Corps generals sit around and brain storm? Do top dogs ask grunt nco's for suggestions?
    The question sounds naïve. Perhaps I am.
    A suggestion box in the hallway at the Pentagon. lol!

    Likely all of what you mentioned. As much as I like to think it's a team of professionals with gobs of combat experience, pouring over AAR's in an effort to be better at the mission... it's often someone with a pet project/idea who waits until he is in a position of power/access to implement it. For example, had I been promoted to CNO, I'd have purchased A-10's with folding wings to carry Harpoon missiles off carriers into combat because that was an idea I had during the cold war for taking on the Soviet navy. Of course, I never joined the U.S. Navy so the contracting officers were safe from my musings.

  10. #20
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    I see. So maybe if a general were in my Sunday school class and I let him shoot my potato cannon and let him hunt and fish for free on my half(?)of the King Ranch, then he might take my advice on submachine guns after he observed me shoot dirt clods and stumps at long range with my black powder revolver. Maybe we should just buy something off the shelf that works well for everybody else.

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