5 rounds of .38 or 7 rounds of 22 mag?

[45dotACP]

A 43C with a hip-grip or clip-draw is awesome.


For me the 43C holds value in three realms.

First, lots of live-fire training for minimal cash outlay.
Second, lightweight "always" gun, that can be hidden in the deepest and darkest crevices.
Third, the gun I can go to, when my carpal tunnel flares up so bad that gripping a .38 J hard enough to keep it in my hand hurts (let alone shooting it) and a P32 feels like I'm getting smashed with a sledgehammer when I fire it. In that scenario a ~11-12 ounce .22 fed with match grade ammo is what I'll have.

Ah shit.

There's a LGS that has a deal on a 43C and you sir, are not helping.

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[Totem Polar]

The upside, you can shoot a thousand rounds a day of .22LR for what a ~200 rounds of .38 WC cost.

Great dog walking gun, too, when the dog wakes you at 3am with the squirts and you're wearing pajama pants and a hoodie. A 43C with a hip-grip or clip-draw is awesome...

For what it’s worth, my own 43c arrived at the LGS today.

And, I’ve got thousands of rounds of .22lr, spare baramis AND a clip grip around here somewhere...

[olstyn]

I know it would be a huge step for many, but an alternative to buying a rimfire gun to get cheap practice ammo that doesn't recoil could be to reload ammo. It has fallen out of fashion since 9mm ammo can be had for $0.18, but back before the earth cooled many of us started reloading ammo because it was a ton cheaper.

Even at $0.18/round, I'm still saving significant money by reloading 9mm - Blue Bullets coated 125 gr truncated cone bullets bought by the case, with a random forum discount code for 5% off work out to something like 6.2 or 6.3 cents per, primers are 3 +/- .5 cents per, and powder is ~ 1 cent per. That's 10-11 cents per, or a savings of roughly 40%. For a while there, .22 didn't even look particularly cheap compared to reloading 9mm.

[mmc45414]

Even at $0.18/round, I'm still saving significant money by reloading 9mm... For a while there, .22 didn't even look particularly cheap compared to reloading 9mm.

I agree, the 22 shortage is part of what started me down the 9mm path I am on now.

And 38 is not cheap like 9mm. And you can make it like a mouse fart.

[Duelist]

I agree, the 22 shortage is part of what started me down the 9mm path I am on now.

And 38 is not cheap like 9mm. And you can make it like a mouse fart.

.38 mouse fart: 105 gr hollow base flat nose moly coated lead, 2.7 gr Bullseye.
.38 bunny fart: 125 gr flat nose moly coated lead, 2.7-3.5 gr bullseye.

Shoot those mouse farts through an N frame .357, and you will giggle.

[TGS]

Haven't seen this video linked with a feature by Claude and the topic in this thread, so I wanted to share it. This is a great video covering the concept by @LGChris:

Lucky Gunner: Maybe I Wrong About Pocket Pistols


Some thoughts:

1) I still think the philosophy on use/purpose of a pistol for private citizens vs LEOs is horribly misguided. In particular, the assumption that since you're a private citizen that somehow you face a different breed of criminal that will run, and thus you don't need anything more than to scare them.

If that's the case, why so much focus on shooting someone in the eye socket? The entire purpose is so that you can reliably reach the CNS, in particular the medulla oblangata and do what? Incapacitate them. So is your goal incapacitation of a violent attacker threatening your life or not? Because you're saying it isn't, but you're practicing for it.....

2) At 5 minutes in, the "Indian not the arrow" speech is given. Why? Why is this concept presented with the assumption being that proficiency and carrying appropriate gear are somehow mutually exclusive topics? They're not. This website is proof of that. There's tons of shooters who are proof of that.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

3) In the same topic presented at the 5 minute mark, Claude uses a relatively true statement in that all pistols are "pop guns"; i.e., they're relatively unimpressive in terms of actual effects, they're not death rays, or however else you might want to describe it. Yeah, that's true, but it's also a simplification taken to the extreme. That's not my opinion, that's the opinion presented by physicians and scientists who've extensively studied terminal ballistics with independently validated, peer reviewed, and OIS-correlated results since the '86 Miami-Dade shootout.

4) Sentinel Events and Pareto Principle. Interesting, and a general theme that I agree with. But, again......if you're training to shoot people in the fucking eyeball you're way past Pareto Principle and into Sentinel Events, no? So why purposely carry a gun that makes those shots harder, as well as automatically making your target much smaller than would be reasonable if using a service-grade caliber, or even a 380 and 38 Special? I'm not talking about people requiring the proverbial "Old Man Gun", I'm speaking in reference to the underlying idea that a .22 is all the gun that is needed, and the continual contradiction that Claude is obviously spending an inordinate amount of time training to do something that is not only very unrealistic to reliably pull off in a real fight, but also something that is in excess of what he has described as being necessary for a private citizen.

Incapacitation.

[psalms144.1]

SNIP

I concur with all of these thoughts, and will only add one more:

"Break contact." At one point Mr. Werner makes a comment to the effect that if we "pop" someone with a .32 and they run away, it's a win for the private citizen. Couldn't agree more. What happens when you "pop" someone with your .22/.25/.32/whatever and they DON'T run away because your ammunition/weapon combination doesn't incapacitate them, and they're not impressed with your action? Then you're suddenly in a Sentinel Event without the tools to fix it. I'm NOT suggesting that if you don't carry a G19 or equivalent you're a walking death sentence. I'm AM suggesting that a low caliber, low capacity, crappy sighted, heavy triggered weapon is NOT something I'd suggest as a "defensive" pistol for anyone I cared for. As TGS pointed out, Claude practices hitting eye-socket sized targets, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE TO HIT TO INCAPACITATE A DEDICATED ATTACKER. How many people who are looking for the CONVENIENCE of a tiny, low recoil pistol are going to TRAIN to be able to hit the eye socket on a moving target in low light?

Anyway, "to each his own, said the lady as she kissed the cow," as my dearly departed mother used to say. This thread is like any political thread in the General Discussion forum, I truly believe we've reached the point of talking past each other.

[JCS]

Does anyone know the weight of a loaded 43c?

I weighed my 442 loaded and it weighs 16.068 ounces. Surprisingly a g43 weighed 22 ounces.

[BillSWPA]

The unloaded weight of a Kel-Tec P-32 or P3AT is around 7 or 8 oz. Loaded weight is about the same as the unloaded weight of the lightest J frames.



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[BillSWPA]

I would never recommend a .22 if something better is an option.

I would recommend a .22 for:

Someone with hand/wrist issues that cannot handle anything bigger.

Someone carrying in a NPE who cannot hide anything bigger (although the availability of .32 and .380 pistols in tiny sizes really negates this unless combined with recoil sensitivity).

Someone who is not as dedicated as us and would not carry anything if their options are either 1) nothing, or 2) something we would regard as ideal. Keep in mind that 99.9% of the ladies in our lives are not going to alter their mode of dress to accommodate a gun. Whatever we suggest for them has to work within that constraint.

One component of the accuracy issue is helped by the availability of Crimson Trace lasers for J frames as well as Beretta 21 pistols. Kel-Tec, and Ruger pistols.



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