5 rounds of .38 or 7 rounds of 22 mag?

[JCS]

Curious on people’s thoughts on this topic. For a j frame, rule 1 gun would you prefer 5 rounds of 38, 7 rounds of 22 mag or even 8 rounds of .22?

I’ve seen some well respected dudes, Caleb Giddings, Claude Werner and John Johnston all recently discuss carrying 22 revolvers.

Is the lower recoil, ability to practice more and higher capacity worth it to you?

ETA: For my purposes this gun would fill a specific role. More of a rule 1 gun. Not a primary carry piece but a supplemental carry piece to larger and more effective firearms.

[willie]

My opinion is that .22 ammo, regular or magnum, can not bring about incapacitation that we seek. I say that probability of achieving this aim is greater with .38 ammo than .22 ammo. Best of both worlds can be had by practicing more with the .22 but carrying the .38. If I had to have more rounds, then I would carry two .38 J's. There are some who post here who have extremely high skill levels. MAS is one. He and a few others could hit an oponent's eye sockets. So for them caliber is moot. Not so much for the rest of us. Me? I've carried .22's, 25 auto's, and 32's.
When I did, I knew better but opted for convenience. And having unqualified status, I was not setting a bad example.

[mtnbkr]

My opinion is that .22 ammo, regular or magnum, can not bring about incapacitation that we seek. I say that probability of achieving this aim is greater with .38 ammo than .22 ammo. Best of both worlds can be had by practicing more with the .22 but carrying the .38. If I had to have more rounds, then I would carry two .38 J's. There are some who post here who have extremely high skill levels. MAS is one. He and a few others could hit an oponent's eye sockets. So for them caliber is moot. Not so much for the rest of us. Me? I've carried .22's, 25 auto's, and 32's.
When I did, I knew better but opted for convenience. And having unqualified status, I was not setting a bad example.

I was listening to Claude Werner on a podcast recently and he made the point that for private citizens the actual requirement is disengagement, not stopping. Any use of the gun, from mere display to shooting the perp with a small caliber, that allows you to disengage from the perp is a success. This differentiates our need from that of a cop as they have a different mission, which is to apprehend, not mere disengagement.

It goes against conventional wisdom, but is worth consideration, especially if you can't handle or conceal more gun.

That said, my Rule 1 gun is a 5-shot 38. With a rimfire, I'd be concerned about ammo reliability, but not terminal effectiveness.

Chris

[JHC]

I was listening to Claude Werner on a podcast recently and he made the point that for private citizens the actual requirement is disengagement, not stopping. Any use of the gun, from mere display to shooting the perp with a small caliber, that allows you to disengage from the perp is a success. This differentiates our need from that of a cop as they have a different mission, which is to apprehend, not mere disengagement.

It goes against conventional wisdom, but is worth consideration, especially if you can't handle or conceal more gun.

That said, my Rule 1 gun is a 5-shot 38. With a rimfire, I'd be concerned about ammo reliability, but not terminal effectiveness.

Chris

The scale of Claude's research on this is pretty impressive. The way I have judged it, for the majority of folks who just want the minimum and most common scenarios covered at close range, I think this has merit. My wife can drill her 351C long after she would be putting up a similar .38. I'm not sure this ease of use is even more important than the capacity difference. But if Claude's info is solid (and I've never seen it debunked) then 5 or 7 should be GTG for this "average" scenario.

I have been working on skills to manage outlier scenarios for decades so I won't be without a service pistol more than a handful of days/year.

[ragnar_d]

Is the lower recoil, ability to practice more and higher capacity worth it to you?

There's another consideration too. Weight. The 638 I carry often is 14.6 ounces, the 351C/43C I was looking at is 11.5. Add 5 rounds of 38 Special add ~2.5 ounces, so 17.1 ounces for the 638. On the 351C, add 7 rounds of .22WMR at ~1.5 ounces and you're at 13 ounces loaded.

Recently I had the opportunity to take a 351 for a test drive and had 3-4 people shoot it as well and the reaction was unanimous among all of us, "This thing is awesome, I'm buying one."

That may not sound like much, but having tried to jog one time with a 12oz (empty) .380 . . . yeah, it's enough. Is a 351C/43C going to replace my G19 as my main EDC? Nope. Will I feel undergunned with one in my particular use for it? Not at all. It would actually be more than I carry at this time in the roll that I'd be using it in.

Also, FWIW, take a listen to the P&S Modcast Episode 168 on mouse guns and 166 on revolvers (these were probably two of my favorite episodes in recent memory). This topic came up a couple times. I'm guessing you might have listened already though from the OP.

https://www.spreaker.com/user/primar...-revolver-bias

https://www.spreaker.com/user/primar...168-mouse-guns

With a rimfire, I'd be concerned about ammo reliability, but not terminal effectiveness.

Chris

Claude mentioned this recently by Claude in one of the above modcasts, but I think that could be an overblown concern. In the last year I've shot over 10,000 rounds of *recent production* 22LR and have had one round fail to fire. If I had a lot of 2013-2015 production 22LR, yeah. I'd be more worried. Just my experience, your mileage may vary.

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Disclaimer: I work in the firearms industry as a designer and engineer. My posts do not represent the opinions or positions of my employers, past or present.

[willie]

I lack credentials to counter Claude Werner's suggestions but do wonder about a couple things. Most certainly I agree that to disengage is a good tactic. I believe in retreating when possible. I carry two wallets and will happily hand over the fake one. Before standing my ground, I will walk away unless the confrontation is in my house. I must assume that the perp in Mr. Werner's example has a gun. If he has a 9mm, 40 S&W, .357 Mag, or .45 Auto, can I assume that he will allow me to pepper him with my .22 and not try to kill me with his weapon? It is this aspect of such a scenario that makes me think that incapacitation is essential. It sounds as if there is an assumption that the perp will not attack when shot with a .22. I view perps as mentally unstable, addicted, and angry. Some are young, athletic, and strong--a combination making them capable of disarming another, especially an elderly person such as myself.

Please note that I am not refuting Mr. Werner's claims. Instead, I'm asking questions.

[spinmove_]

I’ve actually been going back and forth on this topic with myself quite a bit lately. Here’s my take on it as someone new to small guns in general and has never put a significant amount of rounds downrange through any kind of revolver.

Just about everyone will tell you that the 5 shot J-frame is hard to go wrong with and I generally think that’s decent wisdom. However, I hear Claude Werner and Chuck Haggard’s take and 7 and 8 shot .22 revolvers make a lot of sense. So it would seem that either choice would be OK to go with.

Personally? Given that I have so little trigger time on such a platform and shot placement is king (especially in such a platform) that having a centerfire model to practice and dryfire the crap out of is extremely valuable. Sure .22LR and .22WMR are easy and cheap to come by, but I can’t make it to the range nearly as much as I can simply go downstairs and dryfire everyday.

My first J-frame will be a 442/642. My second will probably be a 43c.


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[JCS]

My interests were piqued after listening to the mouse guns p&s podcast. I’ll check out the revolvers one now. I currently have a 442 and while I do love it For it’s role I find myself wanting something a little lighter. I don’t pocket carry very often so I’m pondering a 340pd or a 43c/351pd. Which would put them pretty close in weight or at least closer. I feel if I had a 442 and a 43c I’d never carry the 442 anymore so that’s why I’m asking the question.

[Doc_Glock]

There's another consideration too. Weight. The 638 I carry often is 14.6 ounces, the 351C/43C I was looking at is 11.5. Add 5 rounds of 38 Special add ~2.5 ounces, so 17.1 ounces for the 638. On the 351C, add 7 rounds of .22WMR at ~1.5 ounces and you're at 13 ounces loaded.

Recently I had the opportunity to take a 351 for a test drive and had 3-4 people shoot it as well and the reaction was unanimous among all of us, "This thing is awesome, I'm buying one."
.

Concur. For a pocket gun, I want something light. Currently in the market for a 351 and Bobcat.

[CCT125US]

Timely topic, as I find myself thinking about this as well. Question I bounce back and forth from are:
7 rds of .22mag / 8 rds of .22
Velocity difference between the 2, and does it truly matter.
With the .22 mag I would lean towards the Gold Dot offering
With .22, Velocitors. Does one offer much over the other coming from a short barrel in regards to expansion and penetration.