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Thread: Shooting incidents in the news.

  1. #501
    Site Supporter BaiHu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara View Post
    He doesn't. Now what do you do?
    Is Eric Holder one of my life line options :sly:

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    Fairness leads to extinction much faster than harsh parameters.

  2. #502
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaiHu View Post
    Is Eric Holder one of my life line options :sly:

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    I'm being dead serious. There's a strange dude in your front yard. He's got an AK. This is kind of an abnormal thing in most of American suburbia, of course.

    You tell him to drop it. He doesn't. You repeat it. He still doesn't. Now what?

    Do you turn your back on the strange noncompliant man with the AK and go inside? Do you just stand around and wait for him to do something? Do you holster up and go wrestle him for his AK? Do you use some less-lethal weapon and hope he drops it when he gets a face full of pepper spray? I'm honestly curious.

  3. #503
    Tamara, I think you are blending judgement and justifiable. And they likely shouldnt be. As Nyeti has illustrated, a little judgement may be in order. And this is where the totality of the circumstances would come in to play. If I were in africa in an area known for hostile child armies who have a tendancy to eat you and hang your head on the fence (true story) I would ceratinly be less willing to wait for a furtive movement. But in suburbia, a think its prudent for a bit more reserve, unless the area dictates otherwise. And in this case I do not know the surrounding circumstances, it may indeed be just short of Beruit. But it also may not. I am NOT being critical of Cali LE as a whole but I cant help but think about the 2 women who were shot when the cop went postal out there and the manhunt insued. Their truck didnt even remotely fit the BOLO IIRC. It indeed can raise the question of failing to apply judgement. You must consider the state of mind of a kid that young. I agree it can go both ways as evidenced by the 12 year old who killed his teacher and himself the other day. But it could also be a kid being a kid, thinking they arent doing anything wrong or having a completely panicked irrational reaction to the situation he is not yet mature enought to handle. If he raised it, the officer would be clearly justified. But I can tell you if it was me drawing the bead on a child, in a NON HOSTILE environment, I would require a furtive movement first or some other information coroberating a real threat. Just my humble opinion.

  4. #504
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    Stop the ignorant speculation on this one.

    This happened nearby.

    The deputies attempted to get the male with a rifle to drop it. He did not.

    If you recall, the shooter in Sparks was also 12-13 y/o--walking around with what appeared to be a rifle the day after such a high profile shooting and then utterly ignoring repeated clear commands from armed uniformed LE officers is not smart, no matter how tragic the event might feel to some in society...
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  5. #505
    Ditto on DocGKR's post. Notice in my post, one of my former trainees was in a very similar situation and righteously shot the juvenile. In my case, I was lucky that a couple of the pistols still had the orange on the front of the barrel. Most had the orange removed. These airsoft guns are being regularly used to commit robberies, intimidate people and other assorted crimes. The juvenile offender in this case was ordered numerous times to drop the rifle and also had a replica pistol in his waistband.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara View Post
    I could swear I said "reasonable, articulable fear".
    You did. And I agree that the police should use utmost caution dealing with armed individuals. However, most people have seen videos of police knocking the tar out of people for no particular reason or unjustly shooting someone. What about being thrown in jail for a year for false charges? Does that give someone enough of a reasonable, articulable fear of the police that would justify running from them? What about resisting arrest since they're in "reasonable, articulable fear" that they could be the victim of an assault under "color of law"? What about reading about a woman being arrested and raped in handcuffs in the back of a patrol car? Plenty of people are scared of the police, yet running away or resisting, wouldn't be deemed an inappropriate response.

    What about people who get shot by the police and in their report they lie stating the victim "lunged at them" threatening their safety? After seeing the video should people have a reasonable, articulable fear of the police shooting them for what looks like cooperating with them?

    So, anyhow, hypothetically speaking:
    Person "A" says "Drop the AK!"
    Person "B" does not do so.
    Now what?

    Say Person "A" is you on your front lawn. Person "B" is some dude you don't know on your front lawn with what appears to be an AK. You tell him to drop the gun. He doesn't. Now what do you do?
    In your first example are they breaking the law? Is carrying a rifle in itself against any specific law? What if they're deaf?

    I don't think the lawn example is a good comparison since you're talking about private property which carries a different set of laws than being in public, generally speaking.

    Being scared isn't a one-way street. Ironically, officers justify their behavior on the grounds that they donít like having guns pointed at them, I don't blame them, and because ďI have to go home at night.Ē What about the law-abiding citizen who has an officer pointing their weapon at them? Or worse, what about when they shoot innocent bystanders? Would they be justified in shooting the officer?

    *The incidents/examples I mentioned were fresh in my mind after reading about them this week. There are myriad other examples of pedophiles, rapists, murderers and drug dealers who wear badges but that doesn't justify treating every officer in the same light; nor does it justify treating every citizen with a rifle as if they're a rampaging lunatic hell bent on shooting officers or innocents.

  7. #507
    Site Supporter SeriousStudent's Avatar
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    Mar 2012
    My prayers are for everyone involved in this. It's a terrible result that absolutely no one desired.

    When my kids were growing up, we had pretty strict rules about "playing with guns". Even when they were using "toy" guns, they observed the four rules. Maybe a little overboard? I don't know. But my daughter was indexing her trigger finger in a register position when she was about 6, and had good muzzle discipline before she started grade school. When she went to Army Basic, she told me it drove her insane to watch some of the initial gun handling she saw in her early days there. Fortunately, her Drill Sergeants reinforced proper methods using traditional methods.

  8. #508
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    Be smart, not stupid.

    Fully cooperate with the officers at the scene; sue them, their agency, and city/county/state later if warranted.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  9. #509
    Site Supporter BLR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Be smart, not stupid.

    Fully cooperate with the officers at the scene; sue them, their agency, and city/county/state later if warranted.
    Best advice given here in a long time.

    I'd only add, put a DVR in your car.

  10. #510
    I was in FTO when Columbine happened. Four days later, my training officer and I responded to a call of two armed males on top of a parking deck on the university campus just outside of the rec center (four stories, swimming pools, climbing walls, indoor tracks, multiple gyms, etc). The first thing that flashed through our minds was copy cats.

    Turned out it was guys filming a "commercial" for a mock-action flick for a class project. One had a look alike stainless Beretta 92 that was close enough to the real thing that any sort of furtive movement with it would have drawn gunfire.

    Years later, I see two "armed guys" in a place where "armed guys" are not normally found. Turns out there was a third "armed guy". When the first two see me and another officer who was with me, they shout to the third guy who spins around and sweeps his jacket back with his right hand. I had already popped both of the snaps on my 070, rocked it, and was in the upward motion when I saw that his weapon was actually a video game gun with the chord wrapped around his belt line. In his mind, he was opening his jacket so that I could see it was a toy. In my mind, initially, it was a clearing movement to access a pistol.

    They were on their way to a costume party... The first two had replicas. The third guy didn't have one; so, he took the gun from his video game console.

    I was within milliseconds of shooting a guy one night who had a cell phone (silver flip phone) in his hand. He was the passenger in a car that had indeed been described as having been at the scene of a shooting earlier in the night. Later, I responded to a fight call, and low and behold said car was leaving the scene. I turned up the blue lights. The car stopped, and the passenger hopped out and turned towards me with an object in his hand. The light glinted off of it. My mind was screaming "GUN!!" The only thing that saved him was his immediate compliance with my commands.

    Here is the picture of the rifle in this incident:

    I could readily see cops in the heat of the moment not being able to tell the difference between it and the real thing.


    Now, having written all of the above, there is a big, very big, question not answered in the given information:

    Did they shoot the guy because he was simply walking down the road carrying a rifle and didn't immediately respond to commands, or did he make any sort of movement that can be construed as a furtive movement?

    RAS or PC of a crime to justify the seizure?

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