That iconic image was a still from a Caliber Press training video, so, yes, it was staged. I saw the video, at our academy.Originally Posted by John Hearne
That iconic image was a still from a Caliber Press training video, so, yes, it was staged. I saw the video, at our academy.
Last edited by Rex G; 10-21-2018 at 08:06 AM.
From a purely civilian perspective and as a trainer, the majority of civilians buy a gun, maybe carry their gun, but are really poor gun handlers. I would opt for a manual safety for pure safety purposes. They will be carrying, handling, ignoring their gun the majority of the time in varying carrying methods. For their safety and mine, I think novice shooters should learn the manipulate and handle a gun with a safety until they are competent handlers. The only exception I see is a heavy DAO firearm. I compare the situation to hunting. The safety should always be engaged until one decides to fire. I have been on hunts where a novice disengages the safety in anticipation of the flush, or a duck landing in the decoys...….poor form from a safety standpoint.
In my early career we carried Smith 4506s with the safety off. Officers had the option of using the Safariland 070 holster if they could qualify with it. I know several officers who were saved from gun grabs by that holster. One in particular was actually being lifted from the ground by the suspect trying to get the pistol out of the holster. I have no doubt that officer would have lost his weapon had it not been for the retention. In light of the fact we carried safety off, it likely did save him.
Polite Professional
It seems that the new troopers come programed to do that. Makes my eye twitch.
"It's surprising how often you start wondering just how featureless a desert some people's inner landscapes must be."
-Maple Syrup Actual
I’ve written about this incident on here before, but about 5 years ago, I ended up in a fight over my 1911 with a wanted felon. I remember very distinctly during the fight (which lasted over 3 minutes—so basically, eternity), that the safety on my 1911 would buy me the second I needed to get to the j-frame on my ankle. Scary stuff, and not something I want to repeat.
Most of the stories I’ve heard about officers paying the price for not remembering to deactivate the safety involve officers who were unfamiliar with the weapon— such as an officer who carried a revolver on duty but a 1911 off duty.
I seem to remember @Mas writing about this some, but I might be making that up.
Do you all have any training recommendations for proper use of a manual safety? Like on an MP.
Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. Every time the gun comes off target, engage the safety. Holstering? Safety. Moving? Safety. Hell, you can safety before racking the slide to reset the striker if you want to - though that might develop a weird training scar...
The key is to make finding and using the safety a subconscious act, so it happens EVERY time.
You weren't making it up, bro.
Over the years I've found many documented cases of the manual safety defeating a gun-grabber who didn't "know which button or lever turned on the gun" when he tried to shoot the officer from whom he had taken it.
In 1977, I was feature editor for Illinois Trooper, the publication of the organization representing the Illinois State Police rank and file, Troopers' Lodge #41 of the Fraternal Order of Police. With the cooperation of command and the Ordnance Unit in Springfield, I was allowed to research how well the Model 39 pistol had worked out. In 1967, ISP had become the first state police agency in the nation to adopt a semiautomatic service pistol, the transition being complete in '68. In the intervening decade, I was able to identify thirteen troopers who were almost certainly alive because they'd had that pistol, and would probably have died had they been armed with the previous double action revolvers in their incidents. Four were firepower saves, in which there would have been no time to reload a revolver but the officers were able to finish the fight successfully with their autos. Two or three were saved by magazine disconnector safeties, when they felt the opponent gaining control of the pistol during the struggle and pressed the magazine release button, which they had been taught to do to "kill the gun" in such a situation.
ALL the rest were attributable to the Model 39 being on-safe when the suspect gained control of the trooper's weapon, pointed it at them and tried to shoot them, and failed.
Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department had so many saves in such circumstances that they REQUIRED deputies to carry them on-safe when the Beretta 92 FS was standard issue there.
I have, over the decades, called out publicly in the magazines for cases where forgetting to off-safe a pistol got a cop shot. The only one I've ever heard of was the one mentioned earlier here, in Dallas.
Cases where the offender gained control of an on-safe pistol and was still able to shoot at the officer he'd disarmed, are extremely rare. I've found one in Texas where the suspect literally tore the unconscious officer's holster open to get to her cocked and locked Colt .45 auto, which may have off-safed from contact with the holster during that violent act. He shot her, but she survived. I found one in Florida, also a Colt 1911, where the gun was taken by a guy who turned out to be a genuine "hit-man" who carried a cocked and locked Browning Hi-Power himself. The officer had felt the other man gaining control of the pistol, dumped the mag in the struggle, and when he saw the gun coming toward his head ducked away, causing the man to miss the one shot he had. The attacker dropped the now-empty .45 and fled.
Failures to off-safe guns occur somewhat more among what Mark Moritz calls NDPs, "non-dedicated personnel." P-F's own BBI has documented cases of armed citizens who failed to off-safe guns they were not so familiar with as they should have been. I ran across one of those in Florida, a jewelry store owner who lost a shootout with a revolver-armed robber. The jeweler survived, and stated that he pulled his trigger first, but his on-safe Walther PPK .380 did not fire, and the bad guy's revolver did. When asked if he had practiced with his gun, he replied rather heatedly, "I'm not Rambo, alright?" or words to that effect.
From my perch I have two views. Assuming the user is willing and able to frequently practice drawing and disengaging the safety, it is a net benefit. Admin handling of the firearm is marginally safer, and thus the risk of a personal ND is lower. LE officers who have to converse with potentially violent people at 2’ distance are definitely served well with some kind of a safety; at conversation distance from some angles it might even be easier for the Other Guy to get to a cops gun then the cop wearing it.
The flip side to this is “willing and able to practice” . If the user can’t meet that standard- and there may be very good reasons why this is so - a LEM/DAO trigger system may be best.
The Minority Marksman.
"When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
-a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.
That's me. I would have had to use both hands, one of which was rather tied up at the moment, and might not have been able to deactivate a grip safety due to the deformation of my hand. I certainly don't want to take anything away from the officers/citizens who've experienced a safety saving them, but I won't carry a handgun with an external safety. If I *had* to it would be an ambi safety. I'll rely on retention holster and weapon retention training over relying on the other guy not knowing how to work the safety. I completely understand if someone wants that extra layer, though. If you want it, train, train, train, and work on your injured fighting.
I don't know of any officers, but literally nobody around here who has any officer involved shoots has a gun with a safety. It's all striker fired or TDA. I do know of armed citizens who've failed to deactivate the safety and were victimized, or failed to intervene for a third party, as a result. A woman was disarmed and raped in one instance. A person was unable to intervene to assist an armored car guard being robbed. A man sucked up a *lot* of .40 while pulling the dead trigger of an on-safe pistol. Etc.
I do know of one, now retired, officer who credited a magazine release for a save, though. Back in the Beretta days he was fighting a younger, stronger fellow and he just dropped the mag, let him have it, and went for his own BUG.
So, flip side, if you don't want a manual safety be sure your weapon retention training is up to par. I'd recommend @SouthNarc personally. What he taught was superior to what I'd been taught prior.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
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