Have you switched to a TLR-7?

[SoCalDep]

Slight tangent, but can you explain the why behind momentary only rifle/handheld lights?

Why the modlite over an X300? Of the 4 examples I know of guys running PL350s in duty settings (myself as one of them) everybody has broken one, in one way or another. Multiple failure points, including heads, switches, and mounting lug.

Over the last 12+ years of shooting, I’ve had 2 X300 failures, one lens came loose but still functioned on a non-U X300, and one battery contact spring broke, still functioned until the battery was removed.

Thanks Utm for reminding me... I was going to respond to the above post as well.

I love my Modlite PLH V2 rifle light with the ModButton Lite switch. I like that Modlite was one of the companies that pushed the high candela thing, but my Modlite PL350 has broken a head, the plastic mounting lug basically collapsed (they have metal ones now that work way better), and the right-side switch sheared off. Now that the X300 Turbo is out, I’ve gone to that as my primary duty WML and I’m very happy with it. I have a lot of WMLs from different brands... And I’ve fired in the high tens of thousands of rounds through a bunch of different lights and the Surefires are simply tanks. I have one that took a sim round and the outer lens is shattered... still works great though. I still have one X300 (I wish I still had my old X200) and probably five to seven X300 Ultras. I’ve had a couple DG switches break and sometimes the pins want to walk, but they don’t like to die.

Of the Streamlights I’ve used I destroyed an old model TLR-2G (the version with the laser within the light’s bezel) doing a hot temperature test and Streamlight replaced it with the current bottom-mounted laser unit under warranty. The new model has run great for probably 8 or 9 years. One of my partners was using one of my old (I think 2012ish) TLR-1s when testing a holster and broke the battery cap’s tab. Apparently this was a thing with the older lights and new ones are better. They replaced the switch with no charge and sent me several spares.

I have more rounds through Surefire X300 series lights than anything else, but I still have a lot of rounds through Streamlights and I think they are awesome as well. Those are my recommendations for quality duty-rated lights, and I’m hoping that Modlite will eventually get things ironed out and can become recommended as well. At this point I think there is still some work to be done to perfect their system.

[SoCalDep]

I have never really understood why the strobe or manual strobe is used. I would rather just activate the light when needed and turn it off when I don't. If I have PID on a threat I'm just leaving it on. The strobe disorients the user as much of not more than the potential threat.

I am not a fan of “strobe”, but I agree with what Cdub_NW said - On a hand-held light that I’m planning to use integrated with a handgun, I want the light on when I push... no matter how hard, no matter how scared... and off when I let go because I’m reloading, I dropped it, or need to move and didn’t know how hard I pressed - or because I’m focused on something else. Hand-held lights in real life are a huge complication of things and are often oriented in the wrong direction... in many cases doing more harm than good.

Rifle lights to me are less clear cut. We generally have two hands on the rifle, so manipulating a momentary switch is easier with the support hand if set up right. The issues of threat identification and management are still there, but some of the problems with momentary use that affect handgun WMLs aren’t as bad with rifle WMLs. Add to this that rifles are more commonly associated with military use where leaving a light on is more of a potential problem than in US law enforcement/self defense situations and momentary activation becomes a more attractive option. I still like the option of a constant-on, which is why my Modlite rifle light with the ModButton Lite has a Surefire tailcap with a constant-on option. One of my other rifles has a Streamlight PL something or another and that has both momentary and constant as well, and my AR pistol has a Cloud Defensive OWL that has both... But the OWL has a digital switch and it’s a tap for constant and hold for momentary of which I’m not a super-huge fan.

As for strobe functions and the idea of manually strobing a light... I know of European LE people who claim very effective use of strobe. In a non-Lethal situation, maybe dealing with a drunk or something this may be a decent tool, but there are some big disadvantages to strobe and in a lethal or potentially-lethal situation it’s even more of an issue. This includes difficulty perceiving movement, losing visual input of what is going on since you’re only getting light part of the time, the potential for effects of the strobe to hurt the user in addition to the suspect, and for pretty much every light with a strobe function I’ve ever used the complicated user interface (switching) that more often than not leads to strobe being activated unintentionally. This goes for other complicated functions like low/high and all the rest.

I don’t feel strobing is the same as intermittent light use when searching - whether with a hand-held or a WML depending on circumstances, I totally agree with this and have seen the effectiveness from both the user and the bad guy in force-on-force. This is where the momentary function on a light like an X300U is a good thing, since the toggle is a bit... tough. On the Modlite there is no momentary function needed, and I wish manufacturers who’ve incorporated digital switching would keep it simple and go constant only... press on... press off.

My department issues the X300U, so that’s the majority of what I see, but we have a good number of participating agency recruits in the academy and a lot of them are running Streamlights. Since most of those come from the factory with strobe enabled, I’ll tell them when we start our low light training that they can do what they want, but if they find they don’t like the strobe to let me know and I’ll turn it off. I don’t think I’ve ever had a recruit get past low light day 1 without having me turn off the strobe.

[Utm]

I am not a fan of “strobe”, but I agree with what Cdub_NW said - On a hand-held light that I’m planning to use integrated with a handgun, I want the light on when I push... no matter how hard, no matter how scared... and off when I let go because I’m reloading, I dropped it, or need to move and didn’t know how hard I pressed - or because I’m focused on something else. Hand-held lights in real life are a huge complication of things and are often oriented in the wrong direction... in many cases doing more harm than good.

Rifle lights to me are less clear cut. We generally have two hands on the rifle, so manipulating a momentary switch is easier with the support hand if set up right. The issues of threat identification and management are still there, but some of the problems with momentary use that affect handgun WMLs aren’t as bad with rifle WMLs. Add to this that rifles are more commonly associated with military use where leaving a light on is more of a potential problem than in US law enforcement/self defense situations and momentary activation becomes a more attractive option. I still like the option of a constant-on, which is why my Modlite rifle light with the ModButton Lite has a Surefire tailcap with a constant-on option. One of my other rifles has a Streamlight PL something or another and that has both momentary and constant as well, and my AR pistol has a Cloud Defensive OWL that has both... But the OWL has a digital switch and it’s a tap for constant and hold for momentary of which I’m not a super-huge fan.

As for strobe functions and the idea of manually strobing a light... I know of European LE people who claim very effective use of strobe. In a non-Lethal situation, maybe dealing with a drunk or something this may be a decent tool, but there are some big disadvantages to strobe and in a lethal or potentially-lethal situation it’s even more of an issue. This includes difficulty perceiving movement, losing visual input of what is going on since you’re only getting light part of the time, the potential for effects of the strobe to hurt the user in addition to the suspect, and for pretty much every light with a strobe function I’ve ever used the complicated user interface (switching) that more often than not leads to strobe being activated unintentionally. This goes for other complicated functions like low/high and all the rest.

I don’t feel strobing is the same as intermittent light use when searching - whether with a hand-held or a WML depending on circumstances, I totally agree with this and have seen the effectiveness from both the user and the bad guy in force-on-force. This is where the momentary function on a light like an X300U is a good thing, since the toggle is a bit... tough. On the Modlite there is no momentary function needed, and I wish manufacturers who’ve incorporated digital switching would keep it simple and go constant only... press on... press off.

My department issues the X300U, so that’s the majority of what I see, but we have a good number of participating agency recruits in the academy and a lot of them are running Streamlights. Since most of those come from the factory with strobe enabled, I’ll tell them when we start our low light training that they can do what they want, but if they find they don’t like the strobe to let me know and I’ll turn it off. I don’t think I’ve ever had a recruit get past low light day 1 without having me turn off the strobe.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I have momentary only on my rifle, and need to find a constant on option to go along with it. For handheld I use lighting intermittently. I am not necessarily concerned with deactivating on reloads (I know that's not what is traditionally taught). We issue tlr7a to everyone but swat gets tlr1hl. A few of us use personally owned x300's.

[SoCalDep]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I have momentary only on my rifle, and need to find a constant on option to go along with it. For handheld I use lighting intermittently. I am not necessarily concerned with deactivating on reloads (I know that's not what is traditionally taught). We issue tlr7a to everyone but swat gets tlr1hl. A few of us use personally owned x300's.

I’m with you on the reload thing. I think it’s about priorities, and in my mind the priority is to get the gun reloaded. That said, having watched a lot of people try to do reloads with a hand-held light, I’d prefer it be off, and a momentary-only switch does that well. With WMLs, I’m very much less concerned and would rather reload quickly with a light on than futz with a switch and delay the reload.

[Gun Mutt]

I really appreciate the in depth posts. I'm often stuck reading PF on my phone...but I am reading it. I'm going to remove the pressure switch from my TLR7 this weekend and experimenting with what's been written here.

[cmbarny2]

I just got forced from an X300U that I've carried for years to an issued TLR-7a that got issued department wide at my new PD. The general consensus is that this light is trash for a duty light. Its a step back in output compared to what everyone was using that was personally owned. The switching sucks IMO. And we have had tons of issues with lights not working when they are needed already. The "great idea fairy" lockout front cap is a nightmare that regularly gets turned on guys guns or during training so the light doesn't work. And the Safariland 7000 series holsters we got forced to switch to with them are also terrible. They're so fitted they drag on the light going in and out of the holster and with the closed bottom are a perfect little cup for all sorts of debris and casings. I'm hoping we get this trash removed and we can go back to TLR1s or X300Us again.
edit: I will say I like the size of the light and maybe it would be better on an off duty gun. But as a duty light I find it completely unacceptable.

[TC215]

I just got forced from an X300U that I've carried for years to an issued TLR-7a that got issued department wide at my new PD. The general consensus is that this light is trash for a duty light. Its a step back in output compared to what everyone was using that was personally owned. The switching sucks IMO. And we have had tons of issues with lights not working when they are needed already. The "great idea fairy" lockout front cap is a nightmare that regularly gets turned on guys guns or during training so the light doesn't work. And the Safariland 7000 series holsters we got forced to switch to with them are also terrible. They're so fitted they drag on the light going in and out of the holster and with the closed bottom are a perfect little cup for all sorts of debris and casings. I'm hoping we get this trash removed and we can go back to TLR1s or X300Us again.
edit: I will say I like the size of the light and maybe it would be better on an off duty gun. But as a duty light I find it completely unacceptable.

If you contact Streamlight, they will send you “updated” O-rings that should fix this.

[jnc36rcpd]

I just got forced from an X300U that I've carried for years to an issued TLR-7a that got issued department wide at my new PD. The general consensus is that this light is trash for a duty light. Its a step back in output compared to what everyone was using that was personally owned. The switching sucks IMO. And we have had tons of issues with lights not working when they are needed already. The "great idea fairy" lockout front cap is a nightmare that regularly gets turned on guys guns or during training so the light doesn't work. And the Safariland 7000 series holsters we got forced to switch to with them are also terrible. They're so fitted they drag on the light going in and out of the holster and with the closed bottom are a perfect little cup for all sorts of debris and casings. I'm hoping we get this trash removed and we can go back to TLR1s or X300Us again.
edit: I will say I like the size of the light and maybe it would be better on an off duty gun. But as a duty light I find it completely unacceptable.

My former department also mandates the TLR-7A on issue pistols when carried on or off duty. I think this will be an increasing trend. After a low-light mistake of fact shooting, the police administrator can claim he or she performed due diligence in mandating and issuing the light.

The problem isn't that the performance is that terrible, but that there are better lights available at the same cost. After a low-light mistake of fact OIS, it won't take long for he media, offender advocacy groups or the plaintiffs' bar to produce these lights and point out the TLR 7A as being inadequate. Five hundred lumens is pretty useful clearing a room, but may be less than stellar if, for instance, if the suspect is across the street on the other side of a street light. Additionally,, while I don't think we can count on light working as a weapon, a suspect is more likely to be stunned by a 1,000 lumen light than the 500 lumen version.

I understand why police administrators want officers to have pistol-mounted lights on and off duty. Civil liability and bad media are the twin horsemen of the police administrator's apocalypse, but they set themselves and their officers up for failure by mandating sub-optimal lights (and other gear) when better lights are available and have actually been in use. We can expect television reports showing the performance of the TLR-7A comparing it to the TLR-1/Modlite/Cloud/Surefire and suggesting that if the officer had better lighting, the officer would have seen that sweet, little Jeffrey had a cell phone instead of a Glock.

[Utm]

My former department also mandates the TLR-7A on issue pistols when carried on or off duty. I think this will be an increasing trend. After a low-light mistake of fact shooting, the police administrator can claim he or she performed due diligence in mandating and issuing the light.

The problem isn't that the performance is that terrible, but that there are better lights available at the same cost. After a low-light mistake of fact OIS, it won't take long for he media, offender advocacy groups or the plaintiffs' bar to produce these lights and point out the TLR 7A as being inadequate. Five hundred lumens is pretty useful clearing a room, but may be less than stellar if, for instance, if the suspect is across the street on the other side of a street light. Additionally,, while I don't think we can count on light working as a weapon, a suspect is more likely to be stunned by a 1,000 lumen light than the 500 lumen version.

I understand why police administrators want officers to have pistol-mounted lights on and off duty. Civil liability and bad media are the twin horsemen of the police administrator's apocalypse, but they set themselves and their officers up for failure by mandating sub-optimal lights (and other gear) when better lights are available and have actually been in use. We can expect television reports showing the performance of the TLR-7A comparing it to the TLR-1/Modlite/Cloud/Surefire and suggesting that if the officer had better lighting, the officer would have seen that sweet, little Jeffrey had a cell phone instead of a Glock.

It is definitely the trend in my area because the g45 is becoming the go to issued duty weapon. Holster length has been the selling point

[cmbarny2]

It is definitely the trend in my area because the g45 is becoming the go to issued duty weapon. Holster length has been the selling point

Thats what we went to. G45 with TLR7a in a Safariland 7xxx series holster. Ive never once found holster length that much of an issue to warrant a decrease in light ability. And with my TQ mounted to the holster it makes zero difference anyways.