What's the consensus of those who have taken ECQC? Are pistols with thumb safeties recommended? Why? What are the advantages or disadvantages?
What's the consensus of those who have taken ECQC? Are pistols with thumb safeties recommended? Why? What are the advantages or disadvantages?
I don't like thumb safeties. I've taken ECQC and done ECQC for reals. One of the "for reals" left me with a broken thumb early on. The bones at the base of my thumb were broken and it was useless from that point on.
Advantages are: increased safety when holstering. A hammer to thumb or a gadget can make up most of this ground.
The potential for a lighter trigger with an SAO. I don't need an SAO trigger to shoot well enough to do what I need to do.
Arguably, potentially safer if you get disarmed....so don't get disarmed.
I've seen too many folks forget to take the safety off and pull a dead trigger. You can train out of this, but most folks aren't going to train until they can't get it wrong. While on a static range, maybe. Under stress, while being grappled, while tired and/or injured? Fewer and fewer. Whatever advantage they have isn't worth it to me, and this from a guy who carried a 1911 daily for many years.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
ECQC alum here, but not an especially accomplished one, so all this is just my opinion. The big picture is: any gear selection concerns are pretty secondary to skill selection concerns.
Small picture: I took ECQC the first time with a Glock 9mm; it worked fine, and any challenges or issues that I had were completely aside from my choice of firearm. I took ECQC the second time with a J-frame; it worked fine, and any challenges or issues that I had were completely aside from my choice of firearm.
All that aside, I wouldn't personally choose a gun with a thumb safety (eg 1911) for this sort of work, unless it was all I had. Simpler is better, and believe me, a fully locked down grip is probably better too. If for some reason, I knew I was going to be transported star trek-style into the middle of a FUT with hands already on my gun, I guess I'd take a 2 1/2" 686 with its sharp edged front sight and the stickiest finger groove goodyears I could find... but I wouldn't count on it to do anything for me against someone with 2 or more years of grappling experience over and above my own, and I think that's a fair assessment.
Evos are done with Glock sim guns, btw, with the exception of one where Craig prepped a separate J-frame from my range gun for sim use during a grounded evo.
Final anecdote: in the first ECQC I took, there was an active FedLEO who gave the early impression that his mindset may have been a little bit "I've been through he top training that FLETC has to offer, so I've got this..." I think he came away from the course with some new ideas about weapon retention, and I say this based on both the fact that @misanthropist ripped his entire rig right the F off his belt in an evo, along with the fact that he was pretty effusive in his praise for the weapon retention concepts that Craig brings to the table. He flat-out said that Craig's stuff was light years beyond the training he had received up to that point, and I'm inclined to believe him.
Anyway, simple, reliable, and paying attention to the POI trumps any concerns over gear, gadgets and levers. I'm a wheelie guy, myself, but I don't put that much import on it in this context. Very little, actually. JMO.
”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB
Originally Posted by jill546
If you run a gun with a thumb safety for EDC, then do it in ECQC. If you don't use one normally, then don't do it for the course.
If you use the drawstroke that Craig methodically teaches in the class, the chance of you not wiping off the safety is pretty close to nil. Also, if you understand the timing element, either in the entanglement or out of it with appropriate distance, then you will have plenty of opportunity to get the safety off even if you have an injury, because one of the big takeaways that most people get from ECQC is that a drag race to the gun is stoopid about 98% of the time. It is a positional control issue and has zero to do with gear.
No specific gear gives you a monumental advantage over something else gear-wise (within reason - Craig is not going to give a thumbs up to someone running a SAA), so run what you run normally and learn from that.
ECQC should be taken as an audit of what you do/carry, and for learning lessons you did not know. It is not something to be gamed to do well at.
For info about training or to contact me:
Immediate Action Combatives
I need to take ECQC in 2019.
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Same here. Cecil Burch, who commented just before your post, teaches in my area once or twice a year. I have definite interest in training with him as soon as I can.
BehindBluels, thank you for sharing your experiences. I've often considered the potential of having to use an injured hand to shoot/defend myself. That's one of the big reasons I've leaned more towards LEM vs TDA, and have been considering a cocked and locked HK if I end up hating LEM. But for some reason I never put together that with an injured thumb, a safety would be extremely disadvantageous. Thanks for giving me something to chew on.
If I *had* to carry a thumb safety again, it'd be ambi. Like anything, you can train to do it while injured, and personally I think ambi is a bit easier to do. It just adds to the difficultly. I mean, I can reload a revolver one handed...but it sucks.
Luckily I don't have to, and the only thing with a thumb safety I own is the above mentioned 1911, which I keep because reasons.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
I hate to quibble but if I recall correctly, I ripped the whole rig off someone else: I think it was a guy named Tracey, who was much better than I am at BJJ but I got lucky. I want to say it was in a 2 on 1 where I was the one, but I'm not sure.
The fact that I laid some stripes on that other dude (I forget his name because mentally I was calling him either Jarhead Jarhead or Brett Favre, not as an insult) is a testament to the strength of the curriculum because he was very big, very strong, fitter than me, and aside from ECQCs, probably ten times better trained.
He was not used to FIST helmets and the one set of Evos I faced him in, he hadn't yet made the mental leap of plugging guns into a fist fight and I think I stole his gun and shot him with it both rounds. I also had the advantage of not wearing any padding which sounds like a disadvantage but in fact helps me feel where I am better.
But I was also glad I didn't have to fight him again because I don't think he was in the habit of losing to mouthy guys with sketchy tattoos and by the end of Sunday I think he would have put a pretty good beating on me.
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This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff
Oh I was also going to say that I actually like the 1911 as an ECQC gun. I agree with Cecil that it's very hard to miss the safety when using the draw Craig teaches. I also really like it during the seated table shoot segment.
But I recently used a gadget-equipped Glock and also really liked that.
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This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff
Next ECQC that you make down here, let's get you going with a 1911, because, reasons.
”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB
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