Page 9 of 15 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 142

Thread: A "hand rifle" for an SRO

  1. #81
    Member feudist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Murderham, the Tragic City
    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    IDK if it would be worth starting from scratch with them and the expense of the high ends could make RDS and slide cutting seem like a bargain. (Although the two TRPs I've had and my current LB Operator run with customs for reliability and precision). But storied units in LE and the Army that had mission profiles that demanded great precision used them for many many years for that reason.

    IMO this is not a mission to train for by trying to lower one's splits. It's one to train to hit tight targets in compressed time frames. A great many blooded fighters have found a 1911 delivers in that arena like only a few others.

    That pitch for "God's gun" out of the way, the most cost efficient path IMO would be a G17 or 34 (because it's near universal folks can shoot them with greater precision than the 19, exceptions noted) and cases and cases of ammo. It's the gun you are already highly familiar with. Then a training regimen that dispensed with generous "A zones". It would emphasize the fundamentals that drive precision to "reduced A zones" and smaller.
    Nailed it.

    I would only add the probability of longer than usual engagement ranges.
    Last edited by feudist; 09-24-2018 at 08:50 AM.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Who is “we”? Where is your data showing a reduction in speed at close range due to the use of the dot? What defines “super close”? How much time/how many rounds have you spent using an RDS-equipped pistol?
    Speaking for myself: my data is my Shotmaxx timer, super close for me is a full sized USPSA target out to 7 yards, I have 4000 rounds through mine since the beginning of the year (3000 in last three months) mixed up with 10,000 rounds through an iron sighted gun. I just was speaking to GJM yesterday, commenting that with these types of targets my gun is already out and would have already been shooting with irons yet often times I am still looking for the dot. GJM commented that he doesn't, and I know that he isn't slowed by the dot at any distance, but I also know that 3000 rounds for him could be a week or two of shooting, depending on his schedule.
    A caveat for me is that my irons gun is different from my dot gun, so obviously my index with the dot is not as worked out. Soon enough I'll have an RDS slide to mount on my irons gun frame. Will be interesting to see what happens.

    P.S. Needless to say, the FAST test [referring to Jedi's video that HCM posted] is not an example of a "close range". Even with the disparity of experience with the dot and irons, shooting 2 inch circles or 3x5 cards at 7 yards is much easier and faster with the dot for me. RDS enabled Glock with a full sized grip is what I'd choose if I wanted to score high on the FAST.
    Last edited by YVK; 09-24-2018 at 09:09 AM.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  3. #83
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    SE FL
    Question that seems relevant to the discussion...

    For those that argue that spending the cost of the hardware plus the required transition training be better spent in ammo and getting better with the existing hardware, how do you suggest dealing with eyesight issues? Ignoring, of course, the argument that maybe someone with eyesight issues shouldn't be engaged in a profession requiring "high percentage shots". or, said another way, for those of you making the "shoot more" argument, do you yourself deal with any eyesight challenges and if so how do you deal with them?

  4. #84
    Site Supporter rob_s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    SE FL
    Quote Originally Posted by YVK View Post
    Speaking for myself: my data is my Shotmaxx timer, super close for me is a full sized USPSA target out to 7 yards, I have 4000 rounds through mine since the beginning of the year (3000 in last three months) mixed up with 10,000 rounds through an iron sighted gun. I just was speaking to GJM yesterday, commenting that with these types of targets my gun is already out and would have already been shooting with irons yet often times I am still looking for the dot. GJM commented that he doesn't, and I know that he isn't slowed by the dot at any distance, but I also know that 3000 rounds for him could be a week or two of shooting, depending on his schedule.
    A caveat for me is that my irons gun is different from my dot gun, so obviously my index with the dot is not as worked out. Soon enough I'll have an RDS slide to mount on my irons gun frame. Will be interesting to see what happens.

    P.S. Needless to say, the FAST test [referring to Jedi's video that HCM posted] is not an example of a "close range". Even with the disparity of experience with the dot and irons, shooting 2 inch circles or 3x5 cards at 7 yards is much easier and faster with the dot for me. RDS enabled Glock with a full sized grip is what I'd choose if I wanted to score high on the FAST.
    I had a very early Bowie M&P with a Deltapoint on it. I think I may have written an article about it, but I can't recall now.

    Instinctively finding the dot was a major struggle for me, but until now I never really considered that it was the fact that I was shooting Glocks at the time and the RDS was on a M&P. Not sure why that didn't occur to me back then, especially since at the time I was always strongly advocating people to stick with one platform if they didn't have the time to train on, and beocme proficient with, two (which very few people seem to).

  5. #85
    Member JHC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Georgia
    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Question that seems relevant to the discussion...

    For those that argue that spending the cost of the hardware plus the required transition training be better spent in ammo and getting better with the existing hardware, how do you suggest dealing with eyesight issues? Ignoring, of course, the argument that maybe someone with eyesight issues shouldn't be engaged in a profession requiring "high percentage shots". or, said another way, for those of you making the "shoot more" argument, do you yourself deal with any eyesight challenges and if so how do you deal with them?

    Great question. I think it depends on severity and the nature of the vision issue. DocGKR has posted many times about his which were caused by a head injury in a bike accident. That's one thing and he's sorted that out with the RDS.

    Normal aging eyesight can go either way (irons or optics). I'm both seriously nearsighted, plus old. With monovision contacts I can under correct my dominant eye and see a sharp front sight albeit the target gets blurrier every year.

    When I shoot with my progressive multi-focal glasses (Varilux Physio) my front sight will not be sharp and I focus on the target. And the target is razor sharp.



    Back in March I shot this at 50 yards wearing my glasses and focused on the B8.


    Attachment 30636


    I've managed to shoot equally for precision with each and I'm conflicted about which I prefer. I'm increasingly leaning to going all in the glasses and target focus because the acuity of the Varilux product is jaw dropping.


    There are several target focus shooters here that have written about it. I think Stoeger is (but not 100% sure).


    RDS have great potential and are the future for sure. I'm not convinced the future is now yet unless one really has to use one.
    Last edited by JHC; 09-24-2018 at 09:45 AM.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  6. #86
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Birmingham, AL
    Quote Originally Posted by feudist View Post
    Nailed it.

    I would only add the probability of longer than usual engagement ranges.
    I would ask: Have you considered quantifying your requirements and expectations? I'm going to ask because you had no more difficulty nailing 3x5 cards at speed at 7 yards than you did nailing 8" plates at 30 yards (albeit slower) IIRC. Plus, you were doing it with your "old" glasses.

    What level of difficulty of shot, in terms of size + distance + time-frame, do you have in mind? I would think that understanding your requirements would be helpful.

    For example, if the requirements exceed the mechanical accuracy of the pistol + ammo, that's an inherent problem that can be addressed.

    If vision + irons are the limiting factor, that is another issue. Corrective lenses, different iron sights, MRDS are all options. Practice at 40-50 yards would make sense as well.

    If distance at SPEED is the challenge, then I'd suggest training. Dot Drills, 2 A's @ 25 yards in 2s, etc.

    Apply any or all of the above - and whatever I didn't think of.
    Last edited by GuanoLoco; 09-24-2018 at 10:48 AM.
    Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    IDK if it would be worth starting from scratch with them and the expense of the high ends could make RDS and slide cutting seem like a bargain. (Although the two TRPs I've had and my current LB Operator run with customs for reliability and precision). But storied units in LE and the Army that had mission profiles that demanded great precision used them for many many years for that reason.

    I grew up on 1911's and love them. I love their triggers. But... those high-speed units you are referencing had unlimited budgets for ammo, and more importantly armorers/gunsmiths. I can't imagine any good reason to carry a 1911 on duty in this day and age. Also, those units have dropped the 1911 because even with their budget, the ability to maintain the weapons exceeded their usefulness. They have moved on to 9mm pistols - mostly Glocks. Here at P-F we always talk about having a spare ready to go in case one of your pistols has an issue. The cost of doing that for reliable 1911's is going to be significantly more than other platforms, even with red dots mounted on them.

  8. #88
    Member feudist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Murderham, the Tragic City
    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    I grew up on 1911's and love them. I love their triggers. But... those high-speed units you are referencing had unlimited budgets for ammo, and more importantly armorers/gunsmiths. I can't imagine any good reason to carry a 1911 on duty in this day and age. Also, those units have dropped the 1911 because even with their budget, the ability to maintain the weapons exceeded their usefulness. They have moved on to 9mm pistols - mostly Glocks. Here at P-F we always talk about having a spare ready to go in case one of your pistols has an issue. The cost of doing that for reliable 1911's is going to be significantly more than other platforms, even with red dots mounted on them.
    A lesson I learned the hard way a couple of weeks ago when I pulled my G19 out of it's holster to clean it and the slide fell to the floor.

    Now it has a brother and they have an extra, extra complete spare parts kit.
    Last edited by feudist; 09-24-2018 at 11:13 AM.

  9. #89
    Member JHC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Georgia
    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    I grew up on 1911's and love them. I love their triggers. But... those high-speed units you are referencing had unlimited budgets for ammo, and more importantly armorers/gunsmiths. I can't imagine any good reason to carry a 1911 on duty in this day and age. Also, those units have dropped the 1911 because even with their budget, the ability to maintain the weapons exceeded their usefulness. They have moved on to 9mm pistols - mostly Glocks. Here at P-F we always talk about having a spare ready to go in case one of your pistols has an issue. The cost of doing that for reliable 1911's is going to be significantly more than other platforms, even with red dots mounted on them.
    I agree completely regarding the fleets of pistols those agencies ran. It's an enthusiast's pistol now.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  10. #90
    Member feudist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Murderham, the Tragic City
    Quote Originally Posted by GuanoLoco View Post
    I would ask: Have you considered quantifying your requirements and expectations? I'm going to ask because you had no more difficulty nailing 3x5 cards at speed at 7 yards than you did nailing 8" plates at 30 yards (albeit slower) IIRC. Plus, you were doing it with your "old" glasses.

    What level of difficulty of shot, in terms of size + distance + time-frame, do you have in mind? I would think that understanding your requirements would be helpful.

    For example, if the requirements exceed the mechanical accuracy of the pistol + ammo, that's an inherent problem that can be addressed.

    If vision + irons are the limiting factor, that is another issue. Corrective lenses, different iron sights, MRDS are all options. Practice at 40-50 yards would make sense as well.

    If distance at SPEED is the challenge, then I'd suggest training. Dot Drills, 2 A's @ 25 yards in 2s, etc.

    Apply any or all of the above - and whatever I didn't think of.
    A zone hits at on a moving target at distances up to 50 yards while sorting the no shoots(also moving) that are both downrange and uprange of the target.

    The fastest possible engagement time since every half second delay equals another killed or crippled child.

    The range required could even be higher, as I've seen 75 yard hallways in schools, and the target could well be a head if the shooter has a vest(I'm not aware of any

    who had them, though)

    Followup shots to burn him down.

    Doing this after a 50 yard sprint.

    Multiple mass casualty bags pre-staged.

    ?

    Clearly, whatever I go with, I need to double my practice regime and start shooting matches. Shooting on the clock with you watching me reminded me of the

    valuable pressure that provides.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •