AIWB mag changes???

[strow]

Gabe, how do your reload times and fumble factor compare between AIWB and support side mag reloads?

[Mr_White]

Gabe, how do your reload times and fumble factor compare between AIWB and support side mag reloads?

I'm not good about practicing reloads so I'm a little fuzzy om the times. My sense of it has always been that I can be a tenth or two faster at a greater level of consistency from support side. Top times might be about the same from both, but I see closer to that more often from support side, as well as fewer mistakes. The mistakes from aiwb are mostly related to inconsistency of magazine grip - it's just harder for me to get deep on the magazine from aiwb than support side. It's not like aiwb isn't good or can't be done well, but for me aiwb mag pouches have always been primarily about the concealment factor.

[DAVE_M]

I'm not good about practicing reloads so I'm a little fuzzy om the times. My sense of it has always been that I can be a tenth or two faster at a greater level of consistency from support side. Top times might be about the same from both, but I see closer to that more often from support side, as well as fewer mistakes. The mistakes from aiwb are mostly related to inconsistency of magazine grip - it's just harder for me to get deep on the magazine from aiwb than support side. It's not like aiwb isn't good or can't be done well, but for me aiwb mag pouches have always been primarily about the concealment factor.

That issue has been solved by DSG with the Koala pouch.

[Mr_White]

That issue has been solved by DSG with the Koala pouch.

I think very well of Dark Star, and that magazine pouch looks very good. This doesn't have anything to do with them, but that pouch doesn't solve the problem for me. Ride height of the magazine certainly can be an issue, but it is not the issue for me. It's simply a magazine held at 11:30-12 o'clock and IWB, vs. 3:00-3:30 OWB and the attendant hand/wrist angles, ease of gripping the magazine consistently, and presence of other gear in the same area that makes OWB reload performance better for me than AIWB reload performance (by a little bit.)

[DAVE_M]

I think very well of Dark Star, and that magazine pouch looks very good. This doesn't have anything to do with them, but that pouch doesn't solve the problem for me. Ride height of the magazine certainly can be an issue, but it is not the issue for me. It's simply a magazine held at 11:30-12 o'clock and IWB, vs. 3:00-3:30 OWB and the attendant hand/wrist angles, ease of gripping the magazine consistently, and presence of other gear in the same area that makes OWB reload performance better for me than AIWB reload performance (by a little bit.)

Makes sense. I've run two AIWB mags in the past. Getting to the outer mag (towards 10 o'clock) is much easier than getting to the near center (11-12 o'clock) magazine.

[Mr_White]

Makes sense. I've run two AIWB mags in the past. Getting to the outer mag (towards 10 o'clock) is much easier than getting to the near center (11-12 o'clock) magazine.

Absolutely agree there, and that's the order I reload with AIWB pouches - outer, then inner. With OWB support side, the traditional front-to-back works great as it always has.

[Cory]

It's funny, a topic here can be discussed two dozen times yet I still learn something new.

-Cory

[miller_man]

I think the concealment for AIWB mags (for me at least) outweighs the speed factor. I could NEVER get any kind of concealment for my spare mag OWB 12-3. I'm just a toothpick figure and any thing sitting on my waist in back or side shows way too easy, especially when you add in sitting/standing/bending over.



Gabe, looking at your slow mo video - you have a LOT of what looks like extra movement with gun hand. I think your hand speed is down right amazing and can make up for a lot that - but do you think there could be gains in keeping the gun more stationed and up some?

Not to be meant as ANY critiquing, don't think I've seen any faster concealed mag changes.

I've been seeing HUGE gains in my reloads keeping gun high and moving it as little as possible - but this has all been from my production gamer belt. I had been thinking that with the weird inward movements needed to retrieve the mag from AIWB it may not matter as much or may even be productive to have that kind of form/technique.

[Mr_White]

I think the concealment for AIWB mags (for me at least) outweighs the speed factor. I could NEVER get any kind of concealment for my spare mag OWB 12-3. I'm just a toothpick figure and any thing sitting on my waist in back or side shows way too easy, especially when you add in sitting/standing/bending over.



Gabe, looking at your slow mo video - you have a LOT of what looks like extra movement with gun hand. I think your hand speed is down right amazing and can make up for a lot that - but do you think there could be gains in keeping the gun more stationed and up some?

Not to be meant as ANY critiquing, don't think I've seen any faster concealed mag changes.

I've been seeing HUGE gains in my reloads keeping gun high and moving it as little as possible - but this has all been from my production gamer belt. I had been thinking that with the weird inward movements needed to retrieve the mag from AIWB it may not matter as much or may even be productive to have that kind of form/technique.

I can't say that there are no gains to be had keeping the gun higher, and I know a lot of people recommend that, but I have never been able to really get into it and there are a few reasons I lower the gun.

I'm not sure Ben Stoeger even still goes with this himself, but he persuaded me years ago that wherever you held the gun during the reload, the overall distance of movement was defined by the support hand leaving the gun at full extension and getting the new magazine and ultimately returning to full extension along with the gun. So there is a lot of room to hold the gun at different places, rejoin the hands, etc., within that overall envelope.

For me, I feel that holding the gun lower gets me more consistent magazine insertion, better leverage on the slide stop lever to close it on slidelock reloads, and a greater distance of movement in which to fully rejoin the grip with the support hand. If I keep the gun closer to the target, the support hand has less time/distance to do that. It also has the benefit of avoiding a very high muzzle, which would get me DQ'd at one or two of the places I occasionally shoot. Lastly, like some of the elements of my draw, this particular reload is just kind of 'what my brain and body came up with' as I sought to let the timer drive my performance harder and harder. I'm not there consistently now, but when I've stayed on top of practicing them, I've hit 1.0x slidelock reloads from concealment before, and 1.2x - 1.3x reloads with a lot of regularity.

Again, I'm not certain that a higher reload wouldn't/couldn't be better, but those are the reasons I reload lower.

[strow]

Thank you all again for the input!

I actually gave the OWB weak side reloads a try last night while dry practicing. The skin on my abs was taking a bit of a beating from the AIWB reloads and out of curiosity and frustration I gave the OWB mag placement a try. You would think it would be slower form a distance traveled standpoint but I cannot see it from on the timer. It also seems to have less of a fumble factor than AIWB, in spite of less training reps for now. Or maybe just an Enos/Leatham trick of the day.

Similar to Gabe (but uglier), my reloads tend to happen lower and closer to the body than some recommend. I can consciously keep the gun higher and further out but my consistency, control and speed suffer. If I am really pushing my reloads tend to look like a full body movement with little isolation. If I try to isolate just the arms it seems to be less fluid and slower. That is what the timer says anyway.