Grip pressure and POI Shift

[Toonces]

I’m aware it moves. It’s negligible.

However, the original post I quoted said that lightweight guns cause the POI to be “several inches high.”

Minuscule and negligible really add up when shooting handguns at longer than the "normal" 7-10 yards. The OP shot a 3.5" five shot group at 25 yards. That's pretty damn good. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt based on that group size and say that he's doing a lot more right than wrong. Based on the description of the two groups, there was one group on top of the other, with the loose grip group higher (and wider). That makes perfect sense from a Physics standpoint. Is that the only reason?...don't know.

Just out of curiosity, do you train a lot of beginning handgun shooters?

[ASH556]

I've gone to post this 3 times and chickened out, but WTF, here goes:

In my journey to improve my accuracy/precision with a pistol, I spent a lot of time focused on 25yds. That was the beginning of my journey and helped me develop some solid habits. For instance, I posted a target last week of a 95/100 at 25 yds. First 10 rounds fired being 6 months cold on the pistol. It's not bragging, it's proper application of the fundamentals developed over the last several years.

I agree with whoever posted the bit about grip being the forgotten fundamental. Certain grip structures that work well for recoil mitigation will introduce forces into the pistol that show up as bad groups at distance unless you replicate your grip pressure 100% of the time all the time. I don't think that's realistic. Fatigue is real. So, I think it's important to create as neutral a grip as possible. Hold the pistol stable, but don't use a grip that induces massive left, right, up, or down forces unless you counter it with an opposing force; because you'll fatigue, the opposing force will cease to balance, and you'll start pushing or pulling shots left, right, up, or down.

Here's my "aha!" moment. In one day, with one grip shift, I was able to "neutralize" my grip and shrink my 25yd groups by an inch or two immediately. These targets were shot on the same day an hour apart. More about the journey published here if you care: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....t-cetera/page7

8/30/14 4:28 pm:



8/30/14 5:33 pm:




Here's that 6 months cold target:

[DAVE_M]

Minuscule and negligible really add up when shooting handguns at longer than the "normal" 7-10 yards. The OP shot a 3.5" five shot group at 25 yards. That's pretty damn good. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt based on that group size and say that he's doing a lot more right than wrong. Based on the description of the two groups, there was one group on top of the other, with the loose grip group higher (and wider). That makes perfect sense from a Physics standpoint. Is that the only reason?...don't know.

Just out of curiosity, do you train a lot of beginning handgun shooters?

You’re ignoring, or misunderstanding, the point. The claim was that a G34 with a loose grip sent rounds “several inches high,” while a steel framed gun did not. My argument is that it has nothing to do with the gun, and everything to do with the person pulling the trigger. To prove that, you can review high speed video and/or shoot from a rest and compared the results. Guns don’t become less accurate in freestyle shooting...

And no, I don’t have the time nor the patience to teach new shooters.

[JAD]

The only discernible impact I've found is that if I press a gun's trigger somewhat badly, a strong grip can somewhat neutralize the effect, which is normally lateral. I shoot Glocks left. I shoot Glocks less left when I grip them like they're trying to bite me.

It is not enough to deal with a truly terrible press, like I can perform on a P30 LEM.

It is unnecessary with a trigger which is suboptimal for threat management, e.g. a 1911. I hold those with Cooper's 'quail' grip and it works fine.

[Toonces]

You’re ignoring, or misunderstanding, the point. The claim was that a G34 with a loose grip sent rounds “several inches high,” while a steel framed gun did not.

I'm not ignoring anything intentionally. I did have some misunderstanding, as I took your first post (#12) to be directed to the OP, not @Clusterfrack. With that in mind, I can easily see how there is a difference between a 26 oz gun (the 34 section of Glock's website is down, weight may not be 100% accurate) with a 5.31" barrel, and a 46.5 oz gun with a 4.89" barrel, both held loosely. Physics dictates that the heavier, shorter barrel gun is going to rotate less (ignoring weight distribution, bore height, etc...), therefore it's not going to shoot as high.

My argument is that it has nothing to do with the gun, and everything to do with the person pulling the trigger. To prove that, you can review high speed video and/or shoot from a rest and compared the results. Guns don’t become less accurate in freestyle shooting...

I would say it has something to do with the massive difference between the guns, and it might have something to do with the person pulling the trigger. I see things differently than your absolute statement quoted above. Also, many guns shoot to a different POI when rested as compared to freestyle due to how they move in recoil.

And no, I don’t have the time nor the patience to teach new shooters.

The reason I asked about training new shooters is I thought your statements sounded like things to tell someone in training who has never shot before. If they happen to get good enough to understand they are not 100% correct, they will understand why you said them. Until then, keep it simple.

Regardless, after rereading the thread, I still think you have factual errors in post #12 regarding grip pressure being irrelevant to accuracy and if the round doesn't go where intended - it's you. While they are good general guidelines, they are not absolutely true. I also don't think we're going to change the other's mind, and we'll agree to disagree.

[DAVE_M]

I'm not ignoring anything intentionally. I did have some misunderstanding, as I took your first post (#12) to be directed to the OP, not @Clusterfrack. With that in mind, I can easily see how there is a difference between a 26 oz gun (the 34 section of Glock's website is down, weight may not be 100% accurate) with a 5.31" barrel, and a 46.5 oz gun with a 4.89" barrel, both held loosely. Physics dictates that the heavier, shorter barrel gun is going to rotate less (ignoring weight distribution, bore height, etc...), therefore it's not going to shoot as high.



I would say it has something to do with the massive difference between the guns, and it might have something to do with the person pulling the trigger. I see things differently than your absolute statement quoted above. Also, many guns shoot to a different POI when rested as compared to freestyle due to how they move in recoil.



The reason I asked about training new shooters is I thought your statements sounded like things to tell someone in training who has never shot before. If they happen to get good enough to understand they are not 100% correct, they will understand why you said them. Until then, keep it simple.

Regardless, after rereading the thread, I still think you have factual errors in post #12 regarding grip pressure being irrelevant to accuracy and if the round doesn't go where intended - it's you. While they are good general guidelines, they are not absolutely true. I also don't think we're going to change the other's mind, and we'll agree to disagree.

If there are factual errors, I would like to see the facts.

[Clusterfrack]

I’ll post some pistol data within a week. I’m glad to have a reason to quantify this.

Regarding rifles, it’s really not debatable that recoil control affects POI.

[scjbash]

Minuscule and negligible really add up when shooting handguns at longer than the "normal" 7-10 yards.

Very true. Some first gen M&P's with early unlocking issues were a perfect example of movement before the bullet leaves the gun. The POI shift between fast and slow bullets can be measured in inches at 25 yards with a stock barrel, and it's why the shift disappears with Apex barrels that produce a longer dwell time. I don't consider a difference of inches at 25 yards to be negligible.

[Robinson]

The only discernible impact I've found is that if I press a gun's trigger somewhat badly, a strong grip can somewhat neutralize the effect, which is normally lateral. I shoot Glocks left. I shoot Glocks less left when I grip them like they're trying to bite me.

It is not enough to deal with a truly terrible press, like I can perform on a P30 LEM.

It is unnecessary with a trigger which is suboptimal for threat management, e.g. a 1911. I hold those with Cooper's 'quail' grip and it works fine.

For me, and this is something I didn't anticipate happening back when, 9mm 1911s are less forgiving of improper grip than .45s. I'm relatively new to Glocks and I already shoot my G34s better than my 9mm 1911s. But I shoot my .45 1911s better than either. Weird. Counter-intuitive even. Something about the physics of it I haven't pinned down yet.

[JAD]

For me, and this is something I didn't anticipate happening back when, 9mm 1911s are less forgiving of improper grip than .45s. I'm relatively new to Glocks and I already shoot my G34s better than my 9mm 1911s. But I shoot my .45 1911s better than either. Weird. Counter-intuitive even. Something about the physics of it I haven't pinned down yet.

That's messed up man.