Grip pressure and POI Shift

[Jesting Devil]

Had an interesting moment at the range the other day.

I don't shoot bullseye at long range very often but I pushed out to 25yards with my work gun while on a lunch break. First 5 shots, I shot with a fairly relaxed grip, just worrying about a smooth trigger press and holding still. Not exactly limp-writing it but not a super solid grip either. I called each shot fairly close to center but the resulting group was between 2 and 5in high, and 5-6in wide.

I usually shoot alright at longer ranges so I loaded another 5, bore down harder and shot a nice 3.5ish group right in the middle, calling the shots about the same as before, the only difference being grip pressure. I've always assumed that the bullet would be long gone by the time recoil would shift the POI by any noticeable amount but that seems to not be the case. I usually shoot at little dots up close or USPSA targets and always with some time pressure so I'm usually gripping as hard as possible but I didn't think that was helpful shooting untimed groups freestyle. Is this a known thing that I was just not aware of??

I'll try to replicate the results when I shoot again later this week with some different guns as well, maybe it was a fluke and I just suck. Always possible!

Apologies for the lack of photos, I thought of taking one only after throwing out the target.

Gun is a G23 gen 3 with a NY trigger spring (mandated by work) with Ameriglo .125 pro-glo yellow with the .180 operator rear. Success with these sights also surprised me as I usually like a tighter sight picture for longer shots but they seem to work out ok in practice.

[Jeff22]

Pat McNamara calls grip "the forgotten fundamental"

Earlier this year, I noticed if I was shooting a string of more than three rounds, my shots were going left at about 9 o'clock. (I'm right handed).

I was at a class (Glock Operator) and the instructor watched me for a while and told me that my problem was inconsistent grip pressure with my support hand. If I was trying to go fast my grip was firm, but if I was shooting a five or six shot string, my grip pressure lessened in the middle and the shots went left.

He said you can slap the trigger or jerk the trigger all you want but if your grip is firm and consistent and the gun mount is stable then your shots will be centered.

Lots of times I think we presume that a trigger control problem causes all misses and in reality there are more factors in play

[GJM]

Alternatively, wouldn’t another explanation be that your strong grip is camouflaging an imperfection in your trigger press?

[GJM]

It seems like the Glock trigger is especially challenging to press without disturbing the sights, and many of the references to strong grip come from Glock shooters. Interestingly, last week I was listening to a pod cast with Eric Grauffel, and he said he consciously does not grip hard, because a strong grip with his support hand transmits tension to his trigger finger. Robbie Leatham says you can shoot A’s with a terrible grip, it just has to be slower than with a good grip. Interesting topic!

[CraigS]

...Robbie Leatham says you can shoot A’s with a terrible grip, it just has to be slower than with a good grip. Interesting topic!

I haven't noticed a change in POI w/ grip pressure but I sure agree w/ Leatham. Been shooting mostly our 92s for about 18 yrs mostly at paper at an indoor range. So a relaxed grip was fine and it's not like we have to work to absorb the recoil. But spring of 2017 started doing some very low key local Steel and two IDPA matches. So I quickly found I need to grip the crap out of the gun w/ my support hand. Otherwise it takes forever to get the sights back on target. Next range trip I will try varying grip to see if it changes POI.

[Robinson]

Since a recent class I attended where these things were discussed, I've been really trying to focus on the fundamentals of grip and isolating the trigger finger. I've noticed an improvement in my shooting as a result of this, especially by very intentionally applying those two principles in that order. During all this, I've observed that for me my Glock 34s are a bit more forgiving of a less than optimal grip than my 1911s. I think this is partly because I have a tendency to press the 1911 trigger a bit harder than is necessary and if my grip isn't right it affects my shots -- mostly I shoot low in that case. It's almost as if the combination of proper strong grip, isolating the trigger finger, and a good press are pretty much everything assuming decent sight alignment.

I know --- "well duh".

[psalms144.1]

I noticed this dramatically last week shooting my new M2.0 45 and my G19. Shot the 2.0 first for about 200 rounds, and, while my work wasn't the best, it was all centered on the target - shooting a combination of speed drills up close and longer range accuracy drills. Switched to my G19, and was IMMEDIATELY shooting left - fairly far left (more left than usual even for me). Said "WTF" to myself, and CRANKED down with my support hand, back to center. I'm not sure what this shows, except that with GLOCKs, I have to really crush the weak hand grip to keep things together...

[LSP552]

Until my recent Beretta affliction, SIG TDAs and Glocks were the pistols I used for the last 20 years or so. I have to grip harder and pay more attention to my grip with Glocks than I do with either SIGs or Berettas. I “think” it’s part Glock grip angle and trigger geometry. My TDA SIGs and Berettas also weigh more, so that could be a factor as well.

Edit to add: I’ve decided that my next Beretta will be a PX4CC with trigger job from LTT. That’s closer to Glock weight than my metal frame TDAs and will make an interesting comparison for grip sensitivity.

[willie]

A very long time ago I was reading the very brief blurb that Colt called instructions and included in the box with fixed sight revolvers. For example, for the right handed shooter who was hitting left of aim, Colt advised using thumb pressure against the frame to shift impact to the right. I forgot the rest of the instructions. But grip does affect poi. Routinely I hit left of poi with any handgun that I shoot, especially Glocks.

[Dismas316]

Attended a class this summer with Paul Sharpe and William April and the entire first day was about really gripping hard on the gun with both hands. The improvement for everyone was immediate and noticeable. There were no novice shooters in the class. It became extremely clear in shooting fast with accuracy.

I, like many others that have posted, that other platforms, (sig, etc) do seem to be more forgiving than glock when shooting with a less than strong grip, especially the weak hand. However, what I find with ANY platform, is that if I am shooting very fast, that same weaker grip shows the flaws very quickly in recoil control and accuracy, at least for me.

Now that I have been competing, the stronger grip has created for me a better habit fundamentally. Which is beginning to create better consistency when I compete. The glock angle I have found is actually perfectly designed when you grab a gun with your strong hand and with the slight tilt of your wrist (to conform to the glock grip angle) locks the gun in place much stronger than say a sig for me. Now when I shoot any of my other non glocks, it feels a bit weird not locking my wrist down due to the glock grip angle. Of course, this is what works for me, ymmv.