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Thread: Any departments issuing/allowing flip up magnifiers on patrol rifles?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by lwt16 View Post
    Nothing is being done about it.

    It's a combination of an administration that fails to see the benefit of optics, the expense of decking out rifles with something suitable/expensive, and a hope for the best mentality.

    Then there is the training issue of teaching troops how to run a rifle with optics.

    In admin's defense, we barely have enough staff to handle the calls so pulling folks off the streets to teach them how to use optics is going to be quite the challenge if they ever do decide to purchase them........and they may be looking into it for all I know. I'm not privy to such things. Our current admin has purchased needed equipment lately so maybe it's on the shopping list for the future.

    We have officers that don't know to flip up their rear (some rifles here also have the MBUS rears as primary sights), officers that use the protective wings of the front post as their aiming point, etc. A dot optic would eliminate all of that if they were the type to stay on continuously and be rugged enough for patrol to abuse.

    I also know when to pick my battles and I can run a rifle without an optic so it's not a battle for me. There is plenty I could whine about but admin has their reasons. If I wanted to "change" things I'd have taken the Sgt test years ago and worked my way up.

    But to heck with that. I'd rather be on the streets getting my hands dirty. If I wanted an office gig, I'd have went into business or something else in the public sector making double what I starve on now.

    Regards.
    I have seen it time and again officers get out their rifle and simply forget to flip up their rear sight. They do it during qualifications as well, read: no stress. Imagine them getting into some real stress. Lord. I’m glad we replaced them.

    And being a Sgt doesn’t guarantee you can change things. Changing someone in administrations mind who has been riding a desk for a few years, especially when their mindset is “I’ve done my time in patrol and on nights” is damn near impossible.
    Last edited by KeeFus; 09-22-2018 at 08:29 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by KeeFus View Post
    I have seen it time and again officers get out their rifle and simply forget to flip up their rear sight. They do it during qualifications as well, read: no stress..

    We went through a phase of buying different rifles (aka, budget rifles) and then buying more budget rifles due to the aforementioned budget rifles failing miserably.

    Some had flip ups....some didn't.....and there were no training classes in between all this swap shop/yard sale rifle changing going on. There was simply a 50 round qual and a thumbs up....go forth and serve mentality.

    They recently decided....after seeing multiple cops fail to utilize the flip up rears......that maybe there ought to be some training associated with turning loose cops with rifles. So we recently had a 250 round inservice on how to run a rifle.

    Decent class with more familiarization than muscle memory learning going on. But it's better than nothing. It was a real snooze fest for me but, hey...free ammo and a day of not answering calls.

    Regards.

  3. #23
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angus McFee View Post
    For those in agencies with "No Optics" policies or stances, what is being done about it? Are your employee associations taking it on? If not, why not? It is a workplace / officer safety issue and a public safety issue.

    There are plenty of agencies with issued or personally owned weapons programs that allow optics, even some really big west coast agencies. So the liability card should not apply.
    You know the drill. You fight for what you know you can win, then for what you need the most, then for everything else. In a lot of departments rifle optics are in the 'everything else' category because there are critical things then need to address ahead of that. If a department has a guy like Keefus in the right spot, sometimes you can what you want a little at a time.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  4. #24
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    Hell - not only are we not allowed magnifiers, as of our new policy dated Thu this week, we're not allow optics of ANY KIND...

  5. #25
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    Hell - not only are we not allowed magnifiers, as of our new policy dated Thu this week, we're not allow optics of ANY KIND...
    lol wut

    Do tell...
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    You know the drill. You fight for what you know you can win, then for what you need the most, then for everything else. In a lot of departments rifle optics are in the 'everything else' category because there are critical things then need to address ahead of that. If a department has a guy like Keefus in the right spot, sometimes you can what you want a little at a time.
    Took me 26 years...24 in Patrol with TDY’s in vice/narcotics and 2 years in traffic. If we hadn’t installed a new Chief, who was a firearms instructor and a former 11 Bang-Bang, I doubt what he has allowed to change would have changed at all. My 2019/2020 budget requests are...robust...to say the least.

    Thankfully he likes to give former .mil guys shit about being POG’s. The fact that I was an MP makes the shit talking better (or worse...). The shenanigans go both ways.

  7. #27
    Member 60167's Avatar
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    We are allowed LVPO's. Our patrol rifle program involves personally purchased rifles and optics. We are limited to 1-4 optics, although I haven't seen ANY non-red dot optic actually fielded thus far. I doubt there are many officers on my dept who are willing to spend the money on a quality LVPO.

    That said, our patrol rifles get used most frequently as tools for perimeter officers on barricaded subjects. It makes a lot of sense for us to use magnified optics of some kind...
    If you're not going to learn to use the front sight properly, don't bother with it. If pointing the gun, screaming "Ahhhhh!" and cranking on the trigger is all you can learn to do, work on doing that safely. -ToddG

  8. #28
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    lol wut

    Do tell...
    Dude - I got nuthin. At least we finally approved personally owned long guns, but, of course, mandated that they be "MILSPEC" WTF that means. Now I have about 12 guys e-mailing me every day to ask if their rifle is "MILSPEC" or not. How the hell do I know?

    I can GUESS that DPMS and Bushmaster won't be considered MILSPEC, likewise anything put together on a home work bench from parts kits. But, who am I to know for sure?

    Of course, the decision on what's "duty worthy" is left up to field FIs, with no other guidance than must be "MILSPEC," and can't have any accessories/changes except light, sling, and grips...

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    Dude - I got nuthin. At least we finally approved personally owned long guns, but, of course, mandated that they be "MILSPEC" WTF that means. Now I have about 12 guys e-mailing me every day to ask if their rifle is "MILSPEC" or not. How the hell do I know?

    I can GUESS that DPMS and Bushmaster won't be considered MILSPEC, likewise anything put together on a home work bench from parts kits. But, who am I to know for sure?

    Of course, the decision on what's "duty worthy" is left up to field FIs, with no other guidance than must be "MILSPEC," and can't have any accessories/changes except light, sling, and grips...
    Our policy on personal weapons simply states it has to be a production gun, uppers and lowers from same manufacturer, and pass armorers inspection. It also mandates metal sights & a two-point sling. If you use an optic it has to come from the provided list of manufacturers. If the optic isn’t on the list it may still be approved by the armorer and it’s subject to yearly inspection. Minimum of 3-30 round magazines with which we supply the ammo (Fed LE223T1).
    Last edited by KeeFus; 09-22-2018 at 11:10 AM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by psalms144.1 View Post
    Dude - I got nuthin. At least we finally approved personally owned long guns, but, of course, mandated that they be "MILSPEC" WTF that means. Now I have about 12 guys e-mailing me every day to ask if their rifle is "MILSPEC" or not. How the hell do I know?

    I can GUESS that DPMS and Bushmaster won't be considered MILSPEC, likewise anything put together on a home work bench from parts kits. But, who am I to know for sure?

    Of course, the decision on what's "duty worthy" is left up to field FIs, with no other guidance than must be "MILSPEC," and can't have any accessories/changes except light, sling, and grips...
    At my last armorer's course, Ken Elmore made a point that MILSPEC simply means MILitary SPECification. The is a mil spec for boots, and aglets, and for dishwashing liquid. Without mentioning WHICH milspec, by designator, the term MILSPEC is useless. Hell, AFAIK there is no milspec for an AR-15, and the spec for an M4 requires burst fire, or an M4A1 requires full auto.

    That said, I feel your pain in reference to the powers that be not understanding MILSPEC while demanding it; it is rather maddening.

    pat
    Last edited by UNM1136; 09-22-2018 at 06:13 PM.

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