DA/SA decocking thread #6932 (split from the LTT 92 thread)

[GJM]

Great topic, and along with the hit factor thread, how fun to be discussing software.

I think there is art and science here. The science is that the DA/SA pistol is absolutely decocked before going into the holster. The most egregious violation of this I have seen is when a BLM LE guy approached me in the desert, with the hammer cocked on his holstered 226. Why, because he was nervous that I was out with targets in the desert.

The art part is when to decock. In competition, folks almost never decock after shot one, until the pistol is returned to the holster. If out in the field, I got jumped by three grizzly bears, my DA/SA would not get decocked until there was an obvious lull in the action or I was holstering. I am not qualified to discuss police procedure, but in these litigious times, where LE officers are quick to be thrown under the bus, I can see decocking as a risk management tool from them. That said, if engaged in a running battle with three terrorists with rifles, I can also see them staying in SA instead of decocking, for the same reason competitors stay in SA during a stage, faster to deliver an accurate shot. I do wonder if absolute statements about decocking create legal jeopardy for officers who don’t decock during a protracted fight.

[psalms144.1]

That said, if engaged in a running battle with three terrorists with rifles, I can also see them staying in SA instead of decocking, for the same reason competitors stay in SA during a stage, faster to deliver an accurate shot. I do wonder if absolute statements about decocking create legal jeopardy for officers who don’t decock during a protracted fight.

I don't think anyone's advocating decocking when transitioning between multiple threat targets in a gunfight. That's not OFF TARGET, that's moving the gun BETWEEN targets. OFF TARGET implies, as in your three grizzlies scenario, that there's a reasonable expectation that the SHOOTING part of the engagement is over - more of an "El Prez" on the two-way rifle range...

Now, I would expect an officer moving from cover to cover to flank a threat would decock, because he/she's every bit as likely to have a surprise encounter with a "no shoot" (citizen, other officer, etc) as a previously unidentified ninja.

[GJM]

I don't think anyone's advocating decocking when transitioning between multiple threat targets in a gunfight. That's not OFF TARGET, that's moving the gun BETWEEN targets. OFF TARGET implies, as in your three grizzlies scenario, that there's a reasonable expectation that the SHOOTING part of the engagement is over - more of an "El Prez" on the two-way rifle range...

Now, I would expect an officer moving from cover to cover to flank a threat would decock, because he/she's every bit as likely to have a surprise encounter with a "no shoot" (citizen, other officer, etc) as a previously unidentified ninja.

To clarify, if you are in a shoot out with three bad guys with rifles, and you are moving from point to point with shots being actively fired, are you decocking before each movement?

[willie]

Everybody knows that I was never a cop but am just an old burned out school teacher. I have studied handguns and shooting since a very young age. I ramble to point out that knowledge changes over time. One thing that this means is that what was acceptable in 1960 or 1970 might today be considered poor practice. If I were a trainer, I would teach decocking after firing and would chew ass for non compliance. My students would not be Navy Seals or some other special forces people. I could care less what they might do. I would be struggling to teach untrained persons or what's worse--those with existing bad habits. I agree that there might be small difference between a striker fired Glock and a cocked B92, but there is a difference. As said above, not decocking a B92 or similar weapon is ignoring the weapon's safety feature. My solution to this conundrum is switching to a 357 Sig HK lem. Now I have the best of both worlds, and as a senior dude, I have one less control to manipulate. The Glocks reside in condition 3, and my beloved CZ PCR is stashed in the bathroom.

[psalms144.1]

To clarify, if you are in a shoot out with three bad guys with rifles, and you are moving from point to point with shots being actively fired, are you decocking before each movement?

I'm not, because I'm carrying a Glock If I was carrying my old M11, yes, I'd decock as I moved, I HOPE. Can't guarantee anything, because who knows what the F*** I'd be doing (besides soiling my underpants) if three dudes with rifles were firing at me and I was alone, and out from behind cover. I know when I carried an M11, I decocked EVERY TIME I moved in training, so I would HOPE (and I know hope is not an operational technique) that I'd revert to training and muscle memory.

But, I never had any issues with DA shooting with my Sigs (or Berettas, or S&Ws), so I never felt like I HAD TO have the SA trigger pull to make my hits. I would frequently train DA shots from the holster at small targets (3x5s, for example) at 25 yards with my M11 (M9, etc), with limited difficult and favorable results.

Going even further back in my training, my M16 would always be on-safe while I was moving from cover to cover in buddy-rush training, so that might have set the tone for me on this issue early on - before I seriously started training with handguns. I guess in my mind "safety on" = a DA/SA pistol in DA mode (decocked).

[BehindBlueI's]

That said, if engaged in a running battle with three terrorists with rifles, I can also see them staying in SA instead of decocking, for the same reason competitors stay in SA during a stage, faster to deliver an accurate shot. I do wonder if absolute statements about decocking create legal jeopardy for officers who don’t decock during a protracted fight.

You'll do whatever you trained to do. I ran the safety on my AR subconsciously and I ran my decocker subconsciously. I can assure you I'll decock/safe when moving because I *always* do. As a result I *always* know the condition of my weapon. The first shot of any string is *always* DA.

for the same reason competitors stay in SA during a stage, faster to deliver an accurate shot.

If a gunfight is revolving around timing to the second decimal place, you're counting on luck anyway. I would posit that such differences are largely irrelevant to the outcome of a fight.

[JHC]

There have been some pretty good threads on decocking over the years here.

I will say that every large agency that I’m aware of that issued TDA guns typically taught a version of decocking when coming off target or moving. There were reason for that. Shit happens, people fall when they run under fire, people trigger check under stress, people stick cocked TDAs back in holsters and smoke a round through their foot (seen that personally). Treat a decocker like a 1911 safety when you are pointing it at people or running around with a 140 heart beat isn’t a bad thing.

In general, you want to make decocking (running your gun) subconscious so you can think about tactics under stress.

As alway, worth what you paid and YMMV.

Thanks and that is the right answer for the TDA. It's not an either or among professionals in the fighting business. Competition is a different kettle of fish as they say.

[David S.]

FIFY?

To clarify, if you are in a shoot out with three bad guys with rifles, and you are moving from point to point with shots being actively fired, are you decocking during each movement?

[Dagga Boy]

To clarify, if you are in a shoot out with three bad guys with rifles, and you are moving from point to point with shots being actively fired, are you decocking before each movement?

First, I will be stealing “Risk Management Tool”. It is usually what my focus is.

Here is the issue with the above scenario. A ton of folks in our industry train to do a ton of shooting multiple usassessed targets at maximum speed. For training junkies, it is a cool skills test, competition world is a place where it is a great test and means of separating levels of skill to declare winners and losers. For the John Q Public shooter it is fun, especially if it’s lots of Zombie targets. For the defensive shooting world where we are “supposed” to be training for real world use of force, it is terrible and leads to horrible habits. I have investigated a ton of shootings. Want to know how many were multiple targets in the US who would all be threats that didn’t require any level of assessment or “reset” between them? None. Want to know how many times we see crooks remain stationary whe the shooting starts?....none. So, it becomes critical to treat real targets as wholly individual things that need independent assessment and a good bit of thinking and problem solving. We should have the gun in thinking trigger mode.

My next question is this for those advocating conducting lots of movement and activity with a cocked DA/SA gun. If you or your family and your kids were down range while a LEO or armed citizen was working through a multiple shooter problem, what trigger mode would you prefer them to be working in? Think worst case scenario of a mall, house of worship or school. What do you want to see in the subconscious habit box?

[Sauer Koch]

...reading this forum in general should be mandatory for anyone carrying a gun, just saying! Excellent thread!