DA/SA decocking thread #6932 (split from the LTT 92 thread)

[hufnagel]

Hopefully, a mod can break this off to cover the decocking stuff.

As far as agencies go and training. From minute one with my people, off target, gun is decocked period. It needs to be sub conscious and I train it that anytime the gun comes back to ready from a target it gets the decocker run, even if you don’t shoot. The shooting I was in with a P-220 was a perfect example of the gun needed to be decocked post shooting due to circumstance that was not a typical groomed shooting range situation. Luckily, because of my training it was already decocked, and I did not recall doing it.
Comparing it to a Glock is not a good thing. We have huge issues with people on triggers when they shouldn’t be. Reality is this with a TDA, finger off trigger, run that decocker. If you like the more people management trigger with some room for human error and don’t want to decock....read my diatribe on why I like the LEM, as that is part of my love of that system.

Referring to my “Golden Age” thread. This is part of it. We understand these guns better and how to run them. Decocking them efficiently when the finger comes off the trigger is a critical component to this.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....be-on-triggers
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....t-trigger-quot
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....l=1#post764799

Links. Because people are lazy, and these posts of yours are too good to not be referenced as often as possible.

[pangloss]

I don't even know why I keep clicking on these threads. Thus spoke Dagga Boy: "Off target, decock."

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Philosophical and Literary Note: As an aside, "Thus spoke" is allusion to "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" by Nietzsche. I've not read that book, or any by Nietzsche, so I thought I should check the allusion since I was using it really just for its sound rather than meaning. Wikipedia tells me that "eternal recurrence" is the central theme in "Thus Spoke Zarathustra." The linked entry for "eternal recurrence" says that it is "a theory that the universe and all existence and energy has been recurring, and will continue to recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across infinite time or space." Given the recurrence of this topic, I think the allusion is appropriate.

[GJM]

For a really good shooter like Darryl or Ernest, a DA trigger, especially on a good pistol, is not an impediment to accurate shooting. Of course, even great shooters are able to shoot accurate shots faster in SA than DA, or they would just carry a DA only pistol, with it’s less complicated manual of arms.

However, most people with a DA/SA are not Darryl and Ernest. Either because their technical shooting ability sucks, their pistol’s DA trigger sucks, or both suck, their shooting is terrible in DA. Hell, I was in a Gunsite class when Jeff Cooper told a deputy from SoCal that he ought to fire his first shot from his Beretta 92 into the dirt to get to the SA trigger.

So you get some guy in a deadly force incident firing shots, who genuinely sucks shooting DA, and now you expect he will remember to decock and, if he does remember, that he will be willing to decock and put his pistol in a condition that makes it harder for him to hit with. If we could look at video of many military and law enforcement shootings with DA/SA pistols, I bet in a high percentage of shootings, that pistol doesn’t get decocked once the shooting starts until it is holstered.

[BehindBlueI's]

... is it any more dangerous moving with a cocked DA/SA compaired to a Glock or any other striker fired handgun?

Yes. Because you're used to the heavier trigger pull on the "first" pull. Normally the DA pull gives you a touch more margin of error. Now you've given yourself LESS margin of error because if you subconsciously begin trigger prep based on what the normal "first" pull is you're touching off a round too early. I know, I know, everyone keeps their finger off the trigger until they are ready to shoot. But they don't, and they aren't even aware of it. Even the absolute best can find themselves with finger on the trigger in a rapidly evolving shoot/no-shoot decision change.

Gun off target, decock.

[Jeff22]

(1.) when holding somebody at gunpoint
(2.) when moving
(3.) when re-holstering

I have observed new shooters de-cock when reloading or when transitioning from one target to another but I wouldn't recommend that and I think they did it because of inexperience and not understanding some of their instruction.

I carried Beretta M9s and Sig 226s (traditional DA/SA) and instructed people on similar guns for years.

Over the years, I saw LOTS of people get stressed out (just on the range in training) and attempt to re-holster a cocked gun. Saw it even with experienced shooters sometimes when we were doing some simple low light and flashlight assisted drills on the indoor range.

[Dagga Boy]

For a really good shooter like Darryl or Ernest, a DA trigger, especially on a good pistol, is not an impediment to accurate shooting. Of course, even great shooters are able to shoot accurate shots faster in SA than DA, or they would just carry a DA only pistol, with it’s less complicated manual of arms.

However, most people with a DA/SA are not Darryl and Ernest. Either because their technical shooting ability sucks, their pistol’s DA trigger sucks, or both suck, their shooting is terrible in DA. Hell, I was in a Gunsite class when Jeff Cooper told a deputy from SoCal that he ought to fire his first shot from his Beretta 92 into the dirt to get to the SA trigger.

So you get some guy in a deadly force incident firing shots, who genuinely sucks shooting DA, and now you expect he will remember to decock and, if he does remember, that he will be willing to decock and put his pistol in a condition that makes it harder for him to hit with. If we could look at video of many military and law enforcement shootings with DA/SA pistols, I bet in a high percentage of shootings, that pistol doesn’t get decocked once the shooting starts until it is holstered.

This highlights the problem. I ain’t that good. I had to work to be competent. The problem we have is many do not want to do the work. Want cops to not have to be good at reloading revolvers, get them a 16 shot gun with a revolver like trigger on the first shot, and don’t worry about how to run it. Hardware solution with little software training. Like a new computer without any training how to make it work to its capabilities. Sort of just how to turn it on and off and figure the rest out if you want....or not. Then....DA/SA is too hard, so we give people stuff with easy triggers....to make them easy to shoot with little training on how not to shoot when you don’t want to. Then we come up with about right for most non-dedicated shooters (LEM), but too weird and range guys don’t like it plus it isn’t easy to work on off YouTube. We figure out that maybe DA/SA has some merit again with a shooting trigger when you need a shooting trigger and a thinking trigger when you need a thinking trigger, but back to folks not wanting to get it back to the thinking trigger when not shooting. Plus....competition scenario training conflicting with street scenarios. Reality is every single shot you take on the street needs to meet a reasonable, necessary, legal, and safe criteria....EVERY one. Every Target needs a reset of that process....when you reset, want a thinking trigger or shooting trigger? That is a simple question for me, not so much for others. Make your training choices, and except the consequences or benefits of those choices.

[M2CattleCo]

, I was in a Gunsite class when Jeff Cooper told a deputy from SoCal that he ought to fire his first shot from his Beretta 92 into the dirt to get to the SA trigger.

LAV told me the same thing (in jest) when I was the only TDA shooter on rhe range (P226 9mm).

I agree with decocking in the same situations you would safe an AR or 1911.

I'm also of the opinion that if one is not at least as comfortable with the DA pull, they should carry something else. The TDA is not inherently more safe than anything else and has much more potential for operator error due to the nature of the controls on the decockers.

[psalms144.1]

Reality is every single shot you take on the street needs to meet a reasonable, necessary, legal, and safe criteria....EVERY one.

This is one of my biggest problems training THINKING and shooting to Agents. They all want to think in black and white terms "good shoot" or "bad shoot." Many folks are being trained at FLETC that any hit on the silhouette, as long as it's FAST, is a good hit. I think that's damn near criminally negligent training, but I have no say in the matter. Now, I have to try to reprogram these kids and get them to THINK before, during, and after the shooting - all with about 8-10 hours of training time PER YEAR (if they show up at all), and no way to either reward excellent performance or provide meaningful incentive to improve sub standard performance.

Back to the topic at hand - off target, DECOCK. Period, end of statement. This is easy with some pistols, hard with others. I think this would be particularly hard with the Beretta's slide mounted decock/safety. But, for anyone who thinks the right answer is to move, cover people, or search with a DA/SA pistol in SA mode - respectfully, you're doing it wrong. One of my very first LE firearms instructors always used to make the distinction between "wrong" and "different." If a particular stance or grip doesn't work for a shooter, you're doing it "differently", not necessarily "wrongly." But, when you are doing a technique which is patently UNSAFE, you are doing it WRONG.

[ViniVidivici]

I've run TDA pistols, and was always taught, and practiced, decock when off target, not shooting. Good rule of thumb was decock every time you'd go "on safe" with a 199, or a rifle, for that matter.

[psalms144.1]

I'm also of the opinion that if one is not at least as comfortable with the DA pull, they should carry something else. The TDA is not inherently more safe than anything else and has much more potential for operator error due to the nature of the controls on the decockers.

QFT.