Originally Posted by Prepper_Pig
You can't foresee any occasion, except holstering, where decoking might be warranted? If moving from one position to another, you prefer to run with a cocked pistol? If holding a suspect at gunpoint after shots are fired, you'd rather do that with a cocked pistol?
We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......
Situation dependent of course, but is it any more dangerous moving with a cocked DA/SA compaired to a Glock or any other striker fired handgun?
How about taking advantage of a weapons safety features, in order to minimize the chances of shooting stuff that doesn't need to be shot? I can see where this is going. I'll leave you guys to it.
We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......
Not trying to stir the pot sir, I think you ask a very good question. I dont believe there is a right or wrong answer to it and the situation would dictate the response. Personally in class and training I have done both moving to different barricades, if its close I dont worry about it. If its a longer distance I have been know to decock. I am no door kicker or professional so just my opinion and thoughts, YMMV.
As to my question comparing a DA/SA to a striker fired handgun was purely from a mechanical standpoint. Obviously if my finger or another object hits the trigger all bets are off, but a cocked Beretta 92 still has a half cock notch and a firing pin safety engaged to prevent a discharge if dropped. My single action pulls on most of mine range around 4-5 pounds, similar weights to most modern striker fired guns. It seems that if one was to have a FUBAR with one type the other type wouldent stop it. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I can chime in.
Well I can't foresee all possible situations but generally, no-- I'm not going to decock my pistol in ANY of those situations that you've listed. Granted my duty gun is a Glock at present but it doesn't have a decocker to be engaged on any of the above scenarios either... My first duty gun was an HK USP9 v3 and that's the pistol I cut my teeth on 10 years ago, but there's not a law enforcement agency that I know of in my area that trains their people to decock unless they're reholstering.
I guess its just a difference in training depending on where you're from.
There have been some pretty good threads on decocking over the years here.
I will say that every large agency that I’m aware of that issued TDA guns typically taught a version of decocking when coming off target or moving. There were reason for that. Shit happens, people fall when they run under fire, people trigger check under stress, people stick cocked TDAs back in holsters and smoke a round through their foot (seen that personally). Treat a decocker like a 1911 safety when you are pointing it at people or running around with a 140 heart beat isn’t a bad thing.
In general, you want to make decocking (running your gun) subconscious so you can think about tactics under stress.
As alway, worth what you paid and YMMV.
I suppose I shouldn't drift the thread too far, but I'll say when I started on my department we were all about decocking ("lever down - lever up") our Berettas during the assessment (scan and breath) process. I thought that was stupid. My elitist opinion was bolstered when I trained with our SWAT team (called SEB, or Special Enforcement Bureau), and they drew the pistol, did what needed doing, and then put it on safe (lever down) when they wanted to holster. That seemed so simple and right to me.
Fast forward a decade or so, and our agency is issuing striker-fired pistols, but we had a department competition this past weekend, and of the 69 shooters, a lot were using Berettas, and a good number were using classic Sigs too (with a few LTTs in attendance). I jumped on the striker-fired bandwagon after breaking my trigger finger and losing my ability to press a double action trigger but that got fixed and now I'm back to Berettas as my main pistol and I'm truly a fan of them. As such, I've had the opportunity to look at the manipulation of the DA action from a more modern perspective.
I've seen a recent push for decocking in the same manner as activating the safety on a 1911 or running the safety on an AR-15. At first, my paradigm didn't want to shift, but now I'm of the opinion that if one were to activate the safety on a 1911 or AR, they should decock. This has been hard for me, which is funny, because it's not hard with a 1911 or AR, but it just shows how habits form.
I recently took a low light class with Mike Pannone (CTT Solutions) and one of my big "takeaways" was how he teaches to decock (he's a DA/SA shooter). He advocates decocking as soon as the shooter isn't on the sights, and as the initiation of the ready position. I always brought the pistol to the ready (we call it combat ready but it's basically just a compressed ready position) and then decocked. Mr. Pannone explained that if one did that prior to decocking, and then was distracted by someone else, another problem, etc., that they could forget to decock and end up holstering a cocked pistol. Add to that the concern of movement and suspect management and I really see his point... So now I'm trying to kill the decade or so of habit to decock in the same manner as activating the safety on a 1911 or AR, and at the initiation of coming off target. I love it when I find I've been doing something wrong for a really long time!
Now... That said, I think there's a big difference between what is "the best", and what one can expect from the average, or below average cop. I get to demand performance from someone on my department who carries an AR or wants to carry a 1911. There are many who carry the Beretta who simply don't care, or worse, don't even like carrying a gun. The manipulation of the safety is a disaster to begin with, let alone increasing it to the level of the 1911 or AR. Training is infrequent, and there aren't enough instructors to increase training frequency to the level that would even be considered decent. It's going to be a long time before the proper manipulation of the decocker becomes the norm, and I'm not sure it will ever become the standard on my department. Of course, one has to try...
Hopefully, a mod can break this off to cover the decocking stuff.
As far as agencies go and training. From minute one with my people, off target, gun is decocked period. It needs to be sub conscious and I train it that anytime the gun comes back to ready from a target it gets the decocker run, even if you don’t shoot. The shooting I was in with a P-220 was a perfect example of the gun needed to be decocked post shooting due to circumstance that was not a typical groomed shooting range situation. Luckily, because of my training it was already decocked, and I did not recall doing it.
Comparing it to a Glock is not a good thing. We have huge issues with people on triggers when they shouldn’t be. Reality is this with a TDA, finger off trigger, run that decocker. If you like the more people management trigger with some room for human error and don’t want to decock....read my diatribe on why I like the LEM, as that is part of my love of that system.
Referring to my “Golden Age” thread. This is part of it. We understand these guns better and how to run them. Decocking them efficiently when the finger comes off the trigger is a critical component to this.
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"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
I bet immediate decocking is more palatable to someone that is comfortable with a fast and accurate DA trigger press.
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