Hit Factor Scoring as an Evaluation of Skill

[JHC]

Why not do both — shoot to whatever size target area interests you and apply hit factor scoring to it, so you value speed and accuracy?

For emphasis, I don't mean to argue hit factor isn't a good way to train and measure progress. I am just offering up my preference to the open ended question of how to approach improvement from the OP. Or what I interpreted the question to be.

Take C hits for example. There are "good C's" and "bad C's" as my coach calls them. On the VTAC target you can see the USPSA scoring lines marked over some anatomical features illustrated, and a lot of Cs are just horrific poor.

[GuanoLoco]

On the VTAC target you can see the USPSA scoring lines marked over some anatomical features illustrated, and a lot of Cs are just horrific poor.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...s-VTAC-Targets.

I agree on the C-zone hits not being anatomically significant, but at 7 yards I can make 2 lower A-zone hits in the time I can get an upper A-zone hit. Accuracy has a price in time.

[RJ]

Edit.

It’s just not worth it.

Sorry to have commented in the thread. Carry on.

[MGW]

This is the point I was trying to make in Enel’s training journal. Speed is a very important part of competitive and defensive shooting.

Fixed time drills are either easy, challenging, or impossible depending upon the fixed time and your skill level. They may make sense for a test, where you are evaluating to a standard, but they devalue time assuming you are within the allowed time. Hit factor scoring of drills, by contrast, allows you to set whatever accuracy standard you desire and then use time as an integral part of the scoring to continuously evaluate your performance.

I keep a spreadsheet of times and scores for various drills/tests that I run. Gabe White's standards, FAST, plate racks, GSSF matches, etc. I don't record everything because I don't have that kind of time but enough to keep tabs on what I'm doing. After reading the points you made in Enel's journal I realized that a critical analysis of the data that I have is mostly meaningless. The difference over the last two years and between multiple platforms is too small to really draw any conclusions. It's a little frustrating when I think about the time and money I have put into training over that time when all I really have to show for it is saying that I trained.

There has to be a better way.

[Peally]

Edit.

It’s just not worth it.

Sorry to have commented in the thread. Carry on.

Not trying to shit on you, just want to raise everyone to baller status. If a hobby isn't a priority for you in life I'm not gonna hate you for that.

[GJM]

Edit.

It’s just not worth it.

Sorry to have commented in the thread. Carry on.

Rich, in USPSA, hit factor is used in almost every classifier, every stage, and to determine the results of matches, so learning hit factor shooting is very important. Rob Leatham demos how he would shoot the same target array scored by different methods, from USPSA to IDPA to 3 Gun, to any non A is a DQ, and not surprisingly his shooting is very different depending upon the scoring method used. Rob says his biggest strength as a shooter is to be able to harvest the maximum number of points from every target array presented and every different scoring system.

Not aimed at anyone here, but I also think many defensive shooters get hung up on target anatomy, thinking that they must practice on something anatomically correct at all times. Same with speed, they follow some “standard” for time, rather than seeing where they can go.

I think they should learn great technical shooting, which encompasses much of what Robbie teaches, and then apply that technical shooting skill to whatever game or real world challenge they encounter, where an accurate enough shot fired at the fastest possible time that makes that hit is a winning combination.

[JHC]

Rich, in USPSA, hit factor is used in almost every classifier, every stage, and to determine the results of matches, so learning hit factor shooting is very important. Rob Leatham demos how he would shoot the same target array scored by different methods, from USPSA to IDPA to 3 Gun, to any non A is a DQ, and not surprisingly his shooting is very different depending upon the scoring method used. Rob says his biggest strength as a shooter is to be able to harvest the maximum number of points from every target array presented and every different scoring system.

Not aimed at anyone here, but I also think many defensive shooters get hung up on target anatomy, thinking that they must practice on something anatomically correct at all times. Same with speed, they follow some “standard” for time, rather than seeing where they can go.

I think they should learn great technical shooting, which encompasses much of what Robbie teaches, and then apply that technical shooting skill to whatever game or real world challenge they encounter, where an accurate enough shot fired at the fastest possible time that makes that hit is a winning combination.

I think the best of the shoot for blood folks do borrow what they find value in from the comp world. It is really remarkable how close the standards sync up amongst different organizations that have been in thousands of gunbattles since 9/11. They train to it, then use it for real. Throw out what fails, reinforce what consistently works. If they saw that they consistently need sub 2 second Bill Drills I'm sure they'd use some of that mountain of ammo to achieve it and add it to their standards.

The innovation being employed in those circles where its as real as it gets might be unappreciated.

Now I'm definitely a defensive shooter hung up on target anatomy focus. Guilty and unrepentant.

The last time I shot the LAPD SWAT Qual on a more severe VTAC target's torso box I was unhappy with my 25 yard stage shooting of 2 rounds in 4 seconds but using the small torso box. The problem requires the same hits to fix it, as if it were at 10 yards so I made that a project in my practice. Until I get to 85-90% sinking those shots within standard, what am I shooting it faster for? I'm not seeing that hit factor scoring is going get me to 85-90% sinking those shots in standard because the C hits in that context don't count. A standard they designed around gunfights btw.

[GJM]

The last time I shot the LAPD SWAT Qual on a more severe VTAC target's torso box I was unhappy with my 25 yard stage shooting of 2 rounds in 4 seconds but using the small torso box. The problem requires the same hits to fix it, as if it were at 10 yards so I made that a project in my practice. Until I get to 85-90% sinking those shots within standard, what am I shooting it faster for? I'm not seeing that hit factor scoring is going get me to 85-90% sinking those shots in standard because the C hits in that context don't count. A standard they designed around gunfights btw.

I think I see the problem. In this case, four seconds was not sufficient time for you to make your hits. Hit factor scoring wouldn’t encourage you to go faster, in the situation you describe, it would cause you to shoot at the speed that you can make those hits, which in this case would be slower. A disciplined hit factor shooter knows how much to align the sights and how much to work the trigger to get a hit on the desired target area. Time is irrelevant, except as a way to measure your progress in getting better at aligning sights and pressing the trigger, and comparing your results to those of other shooters. That was the whole point of the Stoeger drill I recently started a thread on, where you learn to shoot two shots that absolutely hit the desired target, and practice that with different target sizes at different distances.

[Gio]

I'm late to this, but hit factor scoring, especially with minor PF, is a great way to measure and track defensive shooting skill. Minor scoring is punitive enough that it will almost always be more beneficial to shoot all A's than any C's, however it's not so punitive like KSTG and IDPA, that there is little to no reward for pushing your limit and experimenting at the ragged edge of your ability to hold it together and perform.

I can back it off and shoot an entire IDPA match with 0 points down, but training at that slow pace does not make me a better defensive or competitive shooter. Training at the edge and understanding just how fast I can hit two A's on a partial target or two A's in the head box, or 6 A's on a 25 yd bill drill, makes me much better at being able to slow down and deliver hits wherever I want to put them.

[Clusterfrack]

Edit.

It’s just not worth it.

Sorry to have commented in the thread. Carry on.

Hey man, I can see how @Peally ‘s post might seem dickish, but I think he was trying to be genuinely helpful. PF is first and foremost about being the best you can be with a pistol. I recommend a growth mindset instead of butthurt.

For what it’s worth, he’s right. You’ll make C in no time with some focused practice, and that will make a massive difference in your overall skill.