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Thread: Hit Factor Scoring as an Evaluation of Skill

  1. #151
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Hit Factor Scoring as an Evaluation of Skill

    I think we need to define accuracy and speed. Once a SAFE shooter can reliably hit the A zone at 15-25 yds, I think they are ready to learn to shoot follow up shots, target transitions, and begin timed drills.

    I agree with @GJM and @cheby.

    My experience is that accuracy-only trained shooters can be uncomfortable with a “good enough” sight picture, and once time is introduced have a more difficult learning process.

    Starting at 13, my daughter learned accuracy and speed together. It wasn’t a big deal to her.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 09-24-2018 at 08:09 PM.
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  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by GyroF-16 View Post
    Wow.

    While I respect your skill and experience, I have a lot of trouble wrapping my head around that idea.

    I may be biased by starting as a bullseye shooter more than 30 years ago... Or by my professional training in airplanes.

    GJM- I know we have a familiarity with flying in common, and having been an instructor in 3 airframes, we never taught “learn to do it fast, THEN learn to do it correctly.”
    Whether teaching rejected takeoffs, engine failures, laser-guided bomb delivery, or gunnery, the expectation was always “walk before you run.”
    Maybe because the environment was always focused on making sure that no good guys were put at unnecessary risk (be that the pilot during an emergency, or anyone but a hostile during weapons employment), correct and precise execution always took precidence over speed, with the expectation that speed would rise to acceptable levels with training, and to superior levels with experience.

    Maybe teaching “fast” first works when teaching sport shooters.
    But, as you acknowledge, when self defense is the objective, precision should come first.
    This is not to “Pooh-pooh” gamers (as I am one of those, too).
    It’s just an interesting difference in philosophy. I guess.
    Not sure how much you know about Bill Rogers, but he is the design genius behind most Safariland holsters, and has operated the Rogers Shooting School for decades. The Rogers School teaches reactive shooting, and has catered to military shooters. Bill has kept meticulous notes of student performance for decades. He also describes his thoughts on this topic in his book.

    In short, he describes precision shooting as an important skill but a separate skill from reactive shooting. Bill’s experience is, that for someone trying to become a very accomplished shooter, meaning that they own speed and accuracy, that the proper order is speed first and then accuracy. Otherwise, shooters develop all this baggage around making a precision shot, that needs to be unlearned to shoot a reactive shot at the speed of human reaction time.

    I also found his ideas pretty provocative when he first described them. However, they were completely supported by my wife’s experience, who learned accuracy first. Despite holding multiple E tickets from Gunsite, she was unable to make Rogers basic, 70/125, on her first visit there. Ultimately, she had to unlearn a bunch of bad habits around accuracy, and as of the last I checked, holds the records for the two highest scores ever shot at Rogers by a woman, 113/125 and 115/125. She really wishes she started with Rogers first and then went to Gunsite, rather than the other way around.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #153
    Site Supporter MGW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I have discussed this at length with Rogers. He believes that, for a person that wants to become an accomplished shooter, it is better to teach speed first and then accuracy. That is the philosophy that is used at the Rogers Shooting School in their beginner class.

    My wife learned accuracy first, at Gunsite and other tactical classes. It was very hard for her to speed up, and took many years to accomplish that.

    If all you are trying to do is learn to defend yourself, an argument can be made to learn accuracy first.
    I’m also the poster child for this. I grew up learning to shoot from a really good bullseye shooter. Now I struggle to push myself to speed up. Mostly it’s a vision thing for me. I have a difficult time seeing what I need to see to make good hits. It’s getting better but I think it’s the absolute worst way to go about it. assuming shooting fast and accurate is the goal anyway.

  4. #154
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    USPSA classifiers are wonderful. If you want to know what skills you need to practice more, shoot a couple of special classifier matches and pay attention to what you didn't do well at, and practice that.

  5. #155
    Bumping this thread, as I've been reading some good IG threads from former Delta Force guys where they talk about hit factor scoring being the "favored scoring method at JSOC". I found that pretty interesting. The former Delta guys IG pages are xray.alpha.llc And the_real_cttsolutions.

    I'm only on IG for the gun and knife content and a lot of it is quite good. Check out their pages for some good content if you're interested.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Williams View Post
    Bumping this thread, as I've been reading some good IG threads from former Delta Force guys where they talk about hit factor scoring being the "favored scoring method at JSOC". I found that pretty interesting. The former Delta guys IG pages are xray.alpha.llc And the_real_cttsolutions.

    I'm only on IG for the gun and knife content and a lot of it is quite good. Check out their pages for some good content if you're interested.
    I like the concept of balancing time constraint versus accuracy and when a certain amount of accuracy is “good enough” for the time constraint.

    A couple finer points for critics who think USPSA hit factor equates to “spray and pray.”

    When steel is involved it’s “all or none” with full points or nothing.

    And you can border an A zone with no-shoots to make the miss penalty severe.

    So there are ways of getting the IDPA kind of accuracy requirements balanced with time, but in reality A or C zone is good / pretty good for a fight I would imagine. Neither guarantees immediate incapacitation anyway so tactics and non-shooting things will still come into play.

  7. #157
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Hit factor / IDPA scoring / steel shooting all rely on hitting the desired target space as quickly as possible.

    Whats nice is that the individual shooter can adjust that at practice by adjusting the permitted size of desired space (making larger or smaller target space) or adjusting the desired time.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    Hit factor / IDPA scoring / steel shooting all rely on hitting the desired target space as quickly as possible.

    Whats nice is that the individual shooter can adjust that at practice by adjusting the permitted size of desired space (making larger or smaller target space) or adjusting the desired time.
    I think the subtleties of the different scoring penalties is what's in play here.

    For Hit Factor scoring in 9mm: on most stages it winds up being about 2-4/10s of time you'd have to make up with a Charlie.
    So basically if I can slow down only a couple tenths it's "worth it" to get the very center mass hit.

    For IDPA -1 scoring... it's basically saying you can / should slow down a FULL SECOND to get that very center hit.

    Taking a full extra second in a firefight seems excessively weighted from a high thoracic to a general center mass torso.

    Steel is the extreme case of "all or nothing." Basically saying, "any hit is pretty much as good as another as long as it's not at the feet."
    That also seems kind of odd but is a good training tool for making sure you can hit what you're aiming at. But it kind of only works in a hit factor background of scoring.


    Long winded way of saying:
    If I were the most knowledgeable of the SMEs with the most extensive database of defensive shootings and anatomy:

    How much extra time would I say to take to get a T-zone head shot over a general head shot?

    Would I say it's worth taking an extra second of time in a firefight (IDPA)?
    Would I say it's worth taking an extra 2-4 tenths (USPSA / hit factor)?
    Or would I say it doesn't matter and grazing the scalp is probably just as good as a T-zone hit (steel)?

  9. #159
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    Except they are all on time. A good USPSA shooter is going for all alphas, same as an IDPA or steel shooter. The only real difference is that steel shooters will kick your ass on transitions, because they are speed focused on transitions.

    The point of my earlier post was that all are great in that the shooter can personalize their practice with the same methodology. If they have a concern that the target size is too big, well reduce the target size.

  10. #160
    Supporting Business NH Shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    My experience is that accuracy-only trained shooters can be uncomfortable with a “good enough” sight picture, and once time is introduced have a more difficult learning process.
    Having come into the world of handgun shooting nearly 40 years ago with a long stint in NRA bullseye shooting, I can absolutely relate to this observation.

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