My guess is that what me might have posted originally had to do with the fact that he *is* pretty much an absolute beginner in USPSA and so "D" is about where anyone would expect him to be. Not to be ageist, but couple that with his age (60+ I believe) being D-class isn't that big a deal. nor is calling it out really relevant to the topic.Originally Posted by Peally
Skimmed most of the thread, so sorry if this is drift or was already covered...
Something that I think gets missed a lot by beginner to even beyond-beginner-but-still-just-starting shooters, all the way up to "masters" trying to teach beginners...
If you can't make A-zone hits on static targets, while you're standing still, at the distances required for your endeavor, I personally think you're doing more harm than good by adding the pressure of time or a match. That said, I think that you need to be mindful of the end goal of allowing for the time factor, but I wouldn't put a new-ish shooter on the clock right away, and I think a lot of new-ish shooters rush, or are rushed, to add time.
For anyone just starting out, I'd focus on getting 100% reliable upper-half-A-zone hits at increasing distances (3, 7, 10, 15, 25 perhaps). Then add getting hits at those distances on the draw, and then possibly while moving after a draw.
I think that may go against current popular shooting instruction methods. It seems to me that the current approach is to add time early and hope to improve accuracy and time together, but I could be off base having been out of things for awhile.
I've swung to both sides of the argument over the years so I'm not sure where the pendulum hangs today.
When I have new shooters I've taken to using a timer to add pressure and familiarity, but repeatedly making the point that I are about the accuracy/precision but NOT the time. I say this over and over again, but I keep using the timer as a start signal.
When they make the shots appropriately I MAY tell them their time.
It's useful to keep the idea going almost from the beginning that time is always relevant.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
I have discussed this at length with Rogers. He believes that, for a person that wants to become an accomplished shooter, it is better to teach speed first and then accuracy. That is the philosophy that is used at the Rogers Shooting School in their beginner class.
My wife learned accuracy first, at Gunsite and other tactical classes. It was very hard for her to speed up, and took many years to accomplish that.
If all you are trying to do is learn to defend yourself, an argument can be made to learn accuracy first.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
It is MUCH easier to teach a fast shooter how to be accurate than the accurate one to speed up. Every single one of them. A lot of shooting instructions out there unfortunately focus on the wrong way...
As a turtle whole decided to become a rabbit (too) late in his training, and is struggling with the balance of accuracy at speed, I wholeheartedly agree - both personally and with people I train with.
Back on point: My primary training mode it to do it, do a ton of training 'at max speed', then learn to throttle it back just enough to maximize Hit Factor, with consistency.
If only I was better at it... Grin
Last edited by GuanoLoco; 09-24-2018 at 06:20 PM.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
Wow.
While I respect your skill and experience, I have a lot of trouble wrapping my head around that idea.
I may be biased by starting as a bullseye shooter more than 30 years ago... Or by my professional training in airplanes.
GJM- I know we have a familiarity with flying in common, and having been an instructor in 3 airframes, we never taught “learn to do it fast, THEN learn to do it correctly.”
Whether teaching rejected takeoffs, engine failures, laser-guided bomb delivery, or gunnery, the expectation was always “walk before you run.”
Maybe because the environment was always focused on making sure that no good guys were put at unnecessary risk (be that the pilot during an emergency, or anyone but a hostile during weapons employment), correct and precise execution always took precidence over speed, with the expectation that speed would rise to acceptable levels with training, and to superior levels with experience.
Maybe teaching “fast” first works when teaching sport shooters.
But, as you acknowledge, when self defense is the objective, precision should come first.
This is not to “Pooh-pooh” gamers (as I am one of those, too).
It’s just an interesting difference in philosophy. I guess.
Like the golf pro said, "Give me somebody who can drive the ball a long way. I'll TEACH him to putt.
Code Name: JET STREAM
FIFM - the first post was embarrassing. Don’t post in a hurry.
Last edited by GuanoLoco; 09-24-2018 at 08:18 PM.
Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Doodie Project?
Disagree.
I “learned” fast first, then accuracy, and wound up bad at both.
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