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Thread: Hit Factor Scoring as an Evaluation of Skill

  1. #151
    Site Supporter Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Hit Factor Scoring as an Evaluation of Skill

    I think we need to define accuracy and speed. Once a SAFE shooter can reliably hit the A zone at 15-25 yds, I think they are ready to learn to shoot follow up shots, target transitions, and begin timed drills.

    I agree with @GJM and @cheby.

    My experience is that accuracy-only trained shooters can be uncomfortable with a “good enough” sight picture, and once time is introduced have a more difficult learning process.

    Starting at 13, my daughter learned accuracy and speed together. It wasn’t a big deal to her.
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 09-24-2018 at 09:09 PM.
    "BJJ is sort of like nonconsensual yoga"
    "You don’t really graduate from certain problems or certain things… like you always have to work on trigger control and pulling the trigger straight. " --Ben Stoeger 1/24/2018

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by GyroF-16 View Post
    Wow.

    While I respect your skill and experience, I have a lot of trouble wrapping my head around that idea.

    I may be biased by starting as a bullseye shooter more than 30 years ago... Or by my professional training in airplanes.

    GJM- I know we have a familiarity with flying in common, and having been an instructor in 3 airframes, we never taught “learn to do it fast, THEN learn to do it correctly.”
    Whether teaching rejected takeoffs, engine failures, laser-guided bomb delivery, or gunnery, the expectation was always “walk before you run.”
    Maybe because the environment was always focused on making sure that no good guys were put at unnecessary risk (be that the pilot during an emergency, or anyone but a hostile during weapons employment), correct and precise execution always took precidence over speed, with the expectation that speed would rise to acceptable levels with training, and to superior levels with experience.

    Maybe teaching “fast” first works when teaching sport shooters.
    But, as you acknowledge, when self defense is the objective, precision should come first.
    This is not to “Pooh-pooh” gamers (as I am one of those, too).
    It’s just an interesting difference in philosophy. I guess.
    Not sure how much you know about Bill Rogers, but he is the design genius behind most Safariland holsters, and has operated the Rogers Shooting School for decades. The Rogers School teaches reactive shooting, and has catered to military shooters. Bill has kept meticulous notes of student performance for decades. He also describes his thoughts on this topic in his book.

    In short, he describes precision shooting as an important skill but a separate skill from reactive shooting. Bill’s experience is, that for someone trying to become a very accomplished shooter, meaning that they own speed and accuracy, that the proper order is speed first and then accuracy. Otherwise, shooters develop all this baggage around making a precision shot, that needs to be unlearned to shoot a reactive shot at the speed of human reaction time.

    I also found his ideas pretty provocative when he first described them. However, they were completely supported by my wife’s experience, who learned accuracy first. Despite holding multiple E tickets from Gunsite, she was unable to make Rogers basic, 70/125, on her first visit there. Ultimately, she had to unlearn a bunch of bad habits around accuracy, and as of the last I checked, holds the records for the two highest scores ever shot at Rogers by a woman, 113/125 and 115/125. She really wishes she started with Rogers first and then went to Gunsite, rather than the other way around.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I have discussed this at length with Rogers. He believes that, for a person that wants to become an accomplished shooter, it is better to teach speed first and then accuracy. That is the philosophy that is used at the Rogers Shooting School in their beginner class.

    My wife learned accuracy first, at Gunsite and other tactical classes. It was very hard for her to speed up, and took many years to accomplish that.

    If all you are trying to do is learn to defend yourself, an argument can be made to learn accuracy first.
    I’m also the poster child for this. I grew up learning to shoot from a really good bullseye shooter. Now I struggle to push myself to speed up. Mostly it’s a vision thing for me. I have a difficult time seeing what I need to see to make good hits. It’s getting better but I think it’s the absolute worst way to go about it. assuming shooting fast and accurate is the goal anyway.

  4. #154
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    USPSA classifiers are wonderful. If you want to know what skills you need to practice more, shoot a couple of special classifier matches and pay attention to what you didn't do well at, and practice that.

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