It's kind of a crude test... but... I stuck a foam earplug behind the trigger on my PX4cc.
I definitely notice a difference: the sights seem less subject to the "jostle" I typically get when the hammer falls. This is a "most momentous" discovery. I may try the eraser method. Perhaps it will improve my DA hit percentages in steel matches.
It's funny, I've noticed the same thing with my Beretta vs. HK triggers in dry fire. It's not so much an issue on the 92, but I can get a lot of horizontal wiggle towards the firing hand side with the PX4. Meanwhile the HK is hardly sensitive to it at all, despite not being nearly as "nice" of a trigger feel. As noted, it's mostly overridden by two-hand control (unless I'm just being sloppy on purpose). Also as noted, it's not nearly as obvious on the target in live fire as the dry practice would make me expect. It does a bit of a mind-f*ck on me regarding my confidence in making a single-handed shot, for sure.
Glad you brought it up; interesting discussion.
--Josh
“Formerly we suffered from crimes; now we suffer from laws.” - Tacitus.
Do you think the spurless hammer might fix this, it weighs less than the normal Px4 hammer?Originally Posted by MattyD380
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Good question. It doesn't seem like much mass to remove... but then again, a hammer isn't a whole lot of mass to begin with. Maybe.
Regardless, giving the trigger some kind of a cushion after it breaks seems to make a real difference. And, FWIW, my Berettas give me the jostle 2 handed as well. My Sig P239 and P245 do not. P226 is less than the Berettas. The hammer just seems to hit harder on the Berettas, for whatever reason. Though I generally prefer the trigger on my Berettas, in other respects.
I need to try it on my 3rd gens. See if I get the jostle...
I get the same thing when dry firing, though it can be different directions rather than the same direction all the time. I also tracked it down mostly to an issue with over-travel, and by association, my trigger follow through. Ironically, I can avoid this fairly well with my Px4 in dry fire in SA, more so than dry fire with my APX, but that doesn't translate to the same degree of error in my live fire, with my live fire under slow conditions SHO showing almost identical results, though perhaps with the APX being slightly more consistently accurate, but with the Px4 perhaps having a slightly better precision. In other words, I'm more likely to have a tighter group slightly off center with the Px4, while I'm more likely to have a slightly larger group closer to center with the APX.
I think part of this is that the SA on my Px4 is so light and crisp that I can "touch off" the Px4 trigger when fresh and dry firing pretty well, and do so with a degree of control so that I never have to follow through into the end of the overtravel on that gun, even though the Px4 has a longer over travel. This makes the dry fire easier on the Px4, but might not translate into the live fire as well. With the APX's heavier trigger, coupled with the less crisp break, but shorter over travel, I'm more likely to hit the over travel stop, and therefore, bad follow through is likely to be more explicit in my dry fire, even if it doesn't as readily manifest during live fire.
For myself, I've determined that having to support the pistol and not having the extra hand to support my grip as well, it exacerbates issues with both my grip consistency, as well as the degree to which I move my trigger finger independently of my grip fingers and palm. When trying to diagnose this for myself, I've realized that one major cause of issues with my follow through is the variability in my grip pressure over the course of the trigger pull and the inconsistency with which grip pressure is applied to various parts of the frame. This is connected with an inconsistent application of trigger finger pressure to the front of the trigger face with my trigger finger. It is actually easier to see and diagnose these issues on the APX, because I get more feedback from the trigger and grip than I do from my Px4.
While a tight, even pressure in my grip seems to work fine when I am shooting two handed, if I am trying to shoot for precision single handed, I am not at all convinced that this helps me. Increasing grip pressure creates too many "pressure hot spots" in my grip which I can identify in the shifting front sight during follow through. Furthermore, the independence of my trigger finger is greatly reduced when I have too much grip pressure in single handed grips. What does seem to help me, though, is the classic doctrine of applying front and back pressure with the grip in a sufficient but gentle manner without applying lateral pressure to the grip. If the gun is positioned properly in my hand and the trigger reach is correct, this maximizes the chances of my achieving two things: firstly, that of best dexterity and control for a straight rearward trigger finger movement; secondly, the best chance of achieving a "locked grip" that maintains passive, neutral grip pressure and muscular tension that remains constant throughout the trigger press even to the end of the follow through. When I couple this with a smooth, rearward application of the trigger finger paying close attention to keep even pressure rearward across the entire front face of the trigger on my APX, and I focus on pinning the trigger to the rear (fully following through), I can tell when I've done it right, and the resulting sight picture when firing looks like the gun is cemented in place for the stability that is achieved. Any minute deviation from this pattern, immediately can be detected in dry fire by that little "blip" in the front sight during follow through.
In short, I find that the classic, Olympic style doctrines relating to pistol fundamentals work very well when you're trying to eek out the very best shot during dry fire single-handed. I think this also translates into any shooting single-handed where precision plays a larger than normal role (for the average action shooter). I suspect that they would need to be tweaked a little bit for the DA pull that you're seeing this issue in, but up to maybe the 6 lb. mark or so (thus including most striker-fired pistols), I'd say that they can basically be taken verbatim. After that, the "spirit rather than the letter" probably begins to apply.
Of course, this is all just relating to my own experience with the same issues that you are seeing in your dry fire. I am not an Olympic class shooter nor can I shoot groups anywhere close to that on the range.
I like this! Its little tidbits like this, new little ways to reimagine and re-synthesize a concept that makes this forum worth it. Also why pursuit of the fundamentals never gets old.
I just checked the two P99's immediately available to me (both pretty early 1st generation guns). In both the DA trigger pull does get heavier near the end, but neither exhibited any sort of grittiness. One of the guns is on its third firing mechanism, and I do not recall any grittiness with any of them. (There is some variance in trigger pull feel from one mechanism to the next, but with all of them the trigger pull has remained quite clean. It's the amount of stacking that differs.)
I too noticed the "jump" but found it pretty easy to control. Tried this with weapon hand only, it didn't occur to me to try it support hand only. My trigger pull technique differs from yours in that I use quite little finger on the trigger - the center of the pad of my trigger finger is on the edge of the trigger during the beginning of the triggers movement. Then again, I have small hands so I'm kind of forced to use less trigger finger on most guns. Anyways, seems to me the "jump" is caused by incorrect movement of the trigger. Focus on pressing straight to the rear at the moment the striker releases. Done correctly, the sights should remain still when the gun clicks. (I was successful in doing clean trigger presses with both guns.)
(Both guns I tried have the same Hogue grip sleeves with finger grooves ground off to give a bit of width and curve to the side of the grip. I don't know what if anything you've done to the grip of your gun, but that might also make a small difference; although the reason for the grip sleeve is improved recoil control during rapid two-handed shooting. Never noticed it being neither a benefit nor a hindrance to one-handed slow fire.)
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