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Thread: A bullet to the neck couldn’t stop him

  1. #11
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    A friend of @JDM's is a local LE officer that some years back ended up in a rough fight with a violent suspect. Violent suspect disarmed the officer in a ground struggle, and shot the officer in the neck with his weapon. Officer then held his neck wound with his off hand and drew his backup (a 5-shot .38) from an ankle holster and put five rounds in the bad guy, who later died from those wounds.
    The officer walked away and was back on duty in a couple of weeks, IIRC. I know it was a through-and-through wound not a grazing wound and that it was with LE duty ammo.

    All I know for certain is that gunfights only get weirder and more unpredictable with every documented gunfight account I read.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45dotACP View Post
    Didn't one of the agents in the Miami shootout take a rifle round to the neck and became temporarily paralyzed?

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    That was SSA Gordon McNeil, who was shot in the neck with a 5.56 round. The projectile hit his spinal column and stopped in his chest.
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  3. #13
    Member KhanRad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    I believe that the Courtney "study" has been thoroughly debunked as the rankest form of bullshit. Doc was part of that furball as I recall.
    Yeah, I saw the reference to Courtney and it totally shut it down for me.
    "A man with an experience is not a slave to a man with an opinion."

  4. #14
    Site Supporter OlongJohnson's Avatar
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    A good time to review Fackler's writeup of the Stockton schoolyard shooting.


    Since we're talking Courtney, is his calculation for stability factor on rifle bullets regarded as useful by the experts?
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  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    A good time to review Fackler's writeup of the Stockton schoolyard shooting.


    Since we're talking Courtney, is his calculation for stability factor on rifle bullets regarded as useful by the experts?
    Good point. It is all about the yaw cycle. 'Point-forward', stable flight through tissue leaves narrow wound channels with little lateral/radial damage; however, once the bullet destabilizes, well, that's an entirely different thing and promises greater damage along the wound track. Of course, critical anatomy still has to be hit...
    Last edited by the Schwartz; 09-06-2018 at 09:29 PM.
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  6. #16
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    I'm aware of several cases of GSWs to the neck in my network of friends, co-workers, etc. They all fell into two categories: dead very quickly or fairly quick recovery with nothing in between. If you miss vital structures, you get a recovery and if you hit those vital structures, particularly the vascular ones, you have a swift fatality.
    The only neck GSW I can remember seeing myself was a 9mm pistol bullet at contact distance. It hit the C-spine, traveled (somehow) inferiorly and laterally, ultimately exiting his back in the vicinity of his L. scapula. Patient was hemodynamically intact, conscious and verbally responsive to questions, but at least in the front room had evidence of a pretty catastrophic spinal injury. No idea how he did afterwards.

    Bullets do weird shit

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr_Thanatos View Post
    The effect of a temporary expansion cavity can cause a bullet which would in theory miss all vital structures a second chance to cause lethal injury. Specifically with rifle bullets, there can be a small, but significant effect to remote structures as a result of the temporary expansion cavity. In some cases, the injuries are not clinically significant (liver lacerations caused by the temp expansion cavity in a double lung/heart path) and in some cases the temporary expansion cavity causes the lethal wound (mid chest wall shot, failed to enter the thoracic cavity at all-complete rupture of the left ventricle of the heart with catastrophic hemopericardium). Both of those cases were with civilian 7.62x39mm bullets. Adding a very small zone of "close" around the bullet usually doesn't matter, except when it does. But it still requires that something vital is struck.

    But I still wouldn't count on it, just be happy (or sad) if it works out that way.
    I'd love to pick your brains about this topic over beers one day. Pathology and radiology are 2 specialties that I don't think are for me, but I'd love to pursue if I had a few extra lifetimes in me.
    Last edited by Nephrology; 09-06-2018 at 10:33 PM.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by OlongJohnson View Post
    A good time to review Fackler's writeup of the Stockton schoolyard shooting.


    Since we're talking Courtney, is his calculation for stability factor on rifle bullets regarded as useful by the experts?
    Quote Originally Posted by the Schwartz View Post
    Good point. It is all about the yaw cycle. 'Point-forward', stable flight through tissue leaves narrow wound channels with little lateral/radial damage; however, once the bullet destabilizes, well, that's an entirely different thing and promises greater damage along the wound track. Of course, critical anatomy still has to be hit...
    I was originally going to point out Fackler and Stockton data...

    Noting Dr. Martin Facklers study of the common FMJ AK47 7.62x39 ammunition used in the Stockton, California, Schoolyard Shooting. With particular attention paid to page 3 "Discussion" and wound profile Fig 3

    Data collected by Fackler shows an avg. of 13.7 to 25cm (5.3 to 9.8 inches) of penetration in common AK FMJ ammo before and significant upset takes place. Its wound profile would be similar to the youtube video of the 300BLK subsonic for at least 5 to 9" (not that much dissimilar to that of 9mm FMJ ball). Obviously not enough tissue in the neck before the round exits to properly "upset" the projectile.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nIc7zY7uM (Not a big fan of Brassfetcher.. but this video is useful.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephrology View Post
    I'd love to pick your brains about this topic over beers one day. Pathology and radiology are 2 specialties that I don't think are for me, but I'd love to pursue if I had a few extra lifetimes in me.
    Forensic pathology is awesome. You work for politicians, get cross examined by lawyers, other doctors both think that you aren't a real doctor, and that you are wrong, and you make half of what your colleagues make in surgical pathology. Is it any wonder that there is roughly half the number of needed forensic pathologists in the country?

    Why do we do it, brain damage. Only good reason I can come up with.

    Beers are on me until you finish residency...then you can pay:-)

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