Israeli Commando Brigade switching from the Tavor to M4s

[Dagga Boy]

I spent some significant time with a couple guys from the Israeli military who were part of their most elite units with significant combat experience (and unlike all the other “elite Israeli Commandos” were VERY secretive about what they did or their status). We had a good discussion on some of this. In the case of the Galil, he lived the SAR and his unit used them extensively, especially in the desert and during cross border operations. With that said, when it came to working urban operations and much of their other tasks, they loved the light weight and fast handling of the telescoping stocked short M16 based guns. The reality I found is like most, these folks want a tool. It needs to be easily supported and easy to use and to keep running. I had a good friend sum this up well. When out of country by himself and unsupported by any US logistics chain, he used AK’s. When supported by a US logistics chain, the right tool was a Colt M16 based carbine.
There is a place for bullpups, and a place for M16 based guns, and they will not be the same place.

[TiroFijo]

...plus in "modern times" you need rails for light, NV pointer/illuminator, and good, quick mounts for optics with good return to zero. Even the light AR is no more after so many add ons, imagine starting with a 8.7 lbs (Galil AR) rifle.

The AR has all this and more, it is super accurate (can easily be free floated), super light, ergonomic and modular (you can change/customize every part to fit your needs) and continues to evolve every day. Other plattforms not so much and age quickly.

The AR is not perfect, but it has many attributes to keep it up to date. Especially in a modern, well trained army and urban environments.

[Bucky]

When I was a right handed shooter, I thought bull pups were the coolest thing. After learning I was left eye dominant, I taught myself to shoot left handed. Now I can shoot either handed, and most bullpups aren’t ambi friendly. Also, a rifle kaboom would likely be much more dicey.

[El Cid]

Other than shooting a few rounds through one on a flat range (no drills or anything - just trying a fellow shooters AUG), I’ve never put in work on a bullpup. It would seem to me that emergency reloads are slower than an AR style rifle. Is that a logical presumption?

[Bart Carter]

Years ago I bought an FN FS2000 after much research about bullpups. I haven't shot it in years. I shoot my PCC based AR at least once a week on average. My 556 versions once a month.

[Bigghoss]

My buddy has an FS2000. I like that it's forward ejecting but the trigger is awful.

[RevolverRob]

Rifle logistics are more simple than many make them out to be.

If you're in a NATO-spec country, an AR-variant is what you want. If you're in a former USSR-bloc or Communist-spec country, an AK-variant is what you want.

In the case of Israel - they're surrounded by Communist-spec countries, but now essentially run on a US and NATO-spec supply chain. So, the adoption of the M4 simply makes their lives easier. The Tavor is too different to allow a high-degree of STANAG interchange. Look at the French - you want to cut costs, but not performance? Drop the home-grown shit and get an AR-platform weapon (in the French case, the HK416, Israel the M4).

It won't be long before the only one regularly shooting bullpups is @Dagga Boy

[BehindBlueI's]

We had them for T&E. One completely stock, one with some aftermarket trigger pack that I don't recall, both kitted out with red dots. For what we do, I found the M-4/M-16 to be superior in every regard.

[Gadfly]

[QUOTE=BehindBlueI's;782879For what we do, I found the M-4/M-16 to be superior in every regard.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

(Side note
But now, we are going to be getting these fancy new MCXs in the next year or so. And I have to decide if the M4 or MCX is better for what we do. Which is a lot of vehicle take downs and entries into small houses and apartments. I thought we were done with sub guns when the mp5s started going away. But I guess not. I do know I can only pick one issued long gun... (end side note)



Sent from my iPhone
(So Excuse the typos)

[WobblyPossum]

Agreed.

(Side note
But now, we are going to be getting these fancy new MCXs in the next year or so. And I have to decide if the M4 or MCX is better for what we do. Which is a lot of vehicle take downs and entries into small houses and apartments. I thought we were done with sub guns when the mp5s started going away. But I guess not. I do know I can only pick one issued long gun... (end side note)



Sent from my iPhone
(So Excuse the typos)

MCX or MPX? I wouldn't say the MCX is a submachine gun.