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Thread: Ghost lettering and/or minimally marked vehicles for traffic stops

  1. #81
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    The other issue is a bias founded in your exposure to traffic crashes. The general population speeds, drives distracted, drives drunk, follows too closely, etc. and rarely sees any negative outcomes from these behaviors. Unless they witness the crash, they just see the aftermath and are able to rationalize what happened. Everyone thinks they are an above average driver and that horrible carnage on the side of the road would never be them.

    Cops are the complete opposite. They see almost every crash, and certainly the bad ones. I posted some comments elsewhere on-line and the comments from the cops were telling. Everyone could perfectly describe the smells associated with a serious crash and one guy even said he smells it when he sees a crash picture. When you see something again and again, that there is no good reason for, you have a desire to stop or reduce it. Cops patience for asshat driving is pretty minimal because they have an biased view of the actual results of the asshat driving.

    It's not sexy but speeding continues to be a significant problem. By controlling speed, you can give drivers more time to respond/react/avoid a crash AND you control the intensity of the crash. Europe has done an impressive job of reducing their traffic fatalities by reducing speeding violations. How was this done - with automatic speed enforcements AKA photo RADAR. Photo RADAR has bombed in the U.S. for mostly cultural reasons. Photo RADAR is now limited to special applications such as school zones. Guess what happens to speeds in front of schools with photo RADAR - yep they quickly drop to match the posted limit. If we, as a culture, don't want photo RADAR and we're not willing to accept a bunch of unnecessary deaths and maimings then something other than white knight enforcement is probably going to be needed.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by orionz06 View Post
    Are you basing that on the discussion you've seen here?
    I’m basing that on seeing this topic come up numerous times over the years in various places, including here. It’s not like unmarked or ghost letters are anything new. Plus, if it’s after dark you can’t tell what, if any, markings are on the car trying to pull you over. I’ve never had anyone think I wasn’t a real police officer when I pulled them over. But most unmarked vehicles have plenty of lights. I probably wouldn’t stop for a vehicle with one little blue light on the dash either. But this topic wasn’t started about police impersonators. I’ve also never gotten mad when someone slowed down, and slowly drove to a lighted public spot to pull over.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by msstate56 View Post
    Let’s just call it what it is- nobody wants to get a ticket, and some people think the police have to “play fair” with conspicuous vehicles so they get a “fair chance.” I drive an unmarked unit. I don’t do regular traffic enforcement, but I’ve had plenty of people blow past me at 40+ over the limit, nearly run me off the road illegally passing, tailgate me so close I could tell you what brand phone case they are currently holding, and drag race drunk. None of which they would do next to a marked unit. But I guess it wasn’t “fair” because my vehicle is unmarked.
    That’s not the case at all.

    I understand the need for subterfuge because most people straighten up when they know someone of authority is watching. It’s why undercover work is a thing. There are just some better ways to go about it in certain practices because of the aforementioned problem with impersonators.

    Several members have relayed experiences to the effect of “nobody questioned me when I stopped them in an unmarked”. That’s a bit of a double-edged sword because one day they might get pulled over by an imposter with nefarious intentions. It’s happened on my home turf a bit more than I’m comfortable with, even in broad daylight.
    “Conspiracy theories are just spoiler alerts these days.”

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCountyGuy View Post
    That’s not the case at all.

    I understand the need for subterfuge because most people straighten up when they know someone of authority is watching. It’s why undercover work is a thing. There are just some better ways to go about it in certain practices because of the aforementioned problem with impersonators.

    Several members have relayed experiences to the effect of “nobody questioned me when I stopped them in an unmarked”. That’s a bit of a double-edged sword because one day they might get pulled over by an imposter with nefarious intentions. It’s happened on my home turf a bit more than I’m comfortable with, even in broad daylight.
    So you’re saying that thousands of people should be restricted from a valid piece of equipment because one or two might use it illegally? Where have I heard that argument?

    I’ve been involved in police impostor vehicle cases, and none had what anyone would consider “adequate” lighting. They almost all have just one blue light, never full interior light bars, wig wags, corner strobes, etc. That’s why nobody questions my vehicle. It seems there is a theme of “only fully marked, lightbar on roof, officer in traditional polyester, complete with hat and whistle should be allowed to pull me over” floating around.

    In your opinion- what would be a better way to catch reckless, aggressive drivers that otherwise wouldn’t drive like that around a marked unit?
    Last edited by msstate56; 09-06-2018 at 11:02 AM.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by msstate56 View Post
    So you’re saying that thousands of people should be restricted from a valid piece of equipment because one or two might use it illegally? Where have I heard that argument?

    I’ve been involved in police impostor vehicle cases, and none had what anyone would consider “adequate” lighting. They almost all have just one blue light, never full interior light bars, wig wags, corner strobes, etc. That’s why nobody questions my vehicle. It seems there is a theme of “only fully marked, lightbar on roof, officer in traditional polyester, complete with hat and whistle should be allowed to pull me over” floating around.

    In your opinion- what would be a better way to catch reckless, aggressive drivers that otherwise wouldn’t drive like that around a marked unit?
    John Q Public generally isn’t going to know that more lights has some correlation to a higher probability the person pulling you over isn’t a fake. They see blue lights, they pull over.

    There’s been a few proven examples provided on how to catch these types of drivers utilizing other methods of subterfuge.

    Outside of special circumstances, yes I think traffic stops should be conducted by marked units. No, it’s not because I’ve been pulled over because the only ticket I’ve ever had was going through a speed trap town nearly 8 years ago. So it’s not like I’ve got a chapped ass about it, which seems to be what you’re convinced of.
    “Conspiracy theories are just spoiler alerts these days.”

  6. #86
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    I drive a fully marked black and white Chevy Tahoe with a light bar on top and very visible deck lights on the rear deck. I constantly have people pass me doing 80+ on the freeway. And if I’m on the freeway I’m doing 5-10 over the limit. Do they not see me (usually) or do they think city cop can’t or won’t pull them over.

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  7. #87
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    The other issue is a bias founded in your exposure to traffic crashes. The general population speeds, drives distracted, drives drunk, follows too closely, etc. and rarely sees any negative outcomes from these behaviors. Unless they witness the crash, they just see the aftermath and are able to rationalize what happened. Everyone thinks they are an above average driver and that horrible carnage on the side of the road would never be them.
    As someone who is a formerly aggressive driver, and now merely 'spirited', I attribute that change entirely to being rear ended 3x in 3 years, most recently resulting in a total loss of my car, and also the hundreds of hours I've spent in the ED in the same timeframe. First time I ever saw someone's face get de-gloved from playing Fast and Furious : Colfax Edition was pretty memorable.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff22 View Post
    This turned out to be a surprisingly contentious topic . . . . It's interesting how different law and custom are from state to state on different issues.

    I've been the police since 1981. Generally speaking, around here, normal patrol units drive marked cars, the supervisors drive unmarked cars and the traffic unit drives unmarked cars.

    At one place I work, the Chief doesn't like lightbars for some reason so the vehicles patrol has (two marked Chevy Tahoes and two unmarked Ford Interceptors) have the emergency lights mounted in the windshield. I personally would rather have lightbars on the marked cars, but I was not consulted on the matter.
    This thread scares the shit out of me and definitely shows differences between states. I'm not LEO, I live in the closest thing to Andy Griffith Mayberry that probably exists in the modern U.S.. Yet, its not unusual for LEO impersonators to jack cars or forceably enter homes and make the papers. Last story that made the news was FBI impersonators. I had no idea there was such a thing as "ghost" LEO cars. Any idiot with a snow plow on a pick up, every garbage truck, any utility vehicle where I live has lights on top.

    I'll gladly comply with any marked, recognizable patrol car. Prior to reading about ghost cars, flashing lights but no markings, especially at night, no way would I stop. This is a dilemma.
    Last edited by Cheap Shot; 09-06-2018 at 08:03 PM.

  9. #89
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheap Shot View Post
    flashing lights but no markings, especially at night, no way would I stop. This is a dilemma.
    How, exactly, do you propose to notice the markings on a car that's behind you at night with flashing lights? And, please read the posts and watch the video I posted. Imposters mark their cars for the same reason forged checks aren't done on post-it notes. If you want to forge/impersonate, you try to get it right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheap Shot View Post
    Yet, its not unusual for LEO impersonators to jack cars or forceably enter homes and make the papers.
    I can count on one hand the number of impersonators who entered a home around here and the home wasn't a dope house and still have enough fingers to hold my coffee cup.

    Quote Originally Posted by HCountyGuy View Post
    John Q Public generally isn’t going to know that more lights has some correlation to a higher probability the person pulling you over isn’t a fake. They see blue lights, they pull over.
    No duty to pull over for blue lights here, they are volunteer firefighters. It's polite to yield to them, but not required by law. You are only required to yield to forward facing red lights, or any combination including red (red/red is fire, red/white is ems, red/blue is police traditionally).
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  10. #90
    Not LEO, wasn't going to post, but, on the subject of impersonators, I know a lady here in WA who (used to?) own a range in Spokane, who had a story about how her son was smarter than she thought, because he declined the invitation to go out joy riding with his buddies who were using a couple of the new LED flashlight, one red and one blue, to trick motorists into pulling over. Evidently ( as in, "from the evidence"), one in right hand, the other in the left, flash them alternately, and people will pull over. So far as I know, the boys just laughed their heads off as they drove by, but as a real-life illustration in an NRA Refuse To Be A Victim class about "feel free to drive to a well-lit area before pulling over", it's hard to beat.
    Last edited by Drang; 09-06-2018 at 09:49 PM.
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