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Thread: The J-frame of shotguns.

  1. #21
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    You're having issues within 25-yards?

    Bear in mind the cheap buckshot - Winchester Super-X and Remington is plain lead No. 3 buck. Federal makes a copper-plated No. 3 buck load that may help (Vital-Shok, Power-Shok is plain lead). I think one of the issues with 20-gauge is pellet deformation, the pellets are pretty light, the cheap stuff isn't buffered, and it goes out at fairly high velocity. I've seen a lot of shot patterns on paper that look like a reflection of flattening pellets resulting in bad spread at farther distances (it's why a choke is so critical in these guns).

    The Federal loads are buffered between the shot (both power-shok and vital-shok), so you get less deformation. Vital-Shok is also a wee-bit slower at 1150-1175 and has the copper plated pellets. The Vital-Shok is the best patterning 20-gauge load I've shot, keeping things tight into about a 6-7" group out to 25-yards with no fliers (this is still running a fairly tight Mod choke). I like this load a lot - except for the fact that it's hard to find.

    The Rio #1 Buck is a 9-pellet load, all plain lead pellets at 1200 fps. The heavier weight of the #1 pellets seems to prevent pellet deformation and through an IMOD choke it's close to the patterns of the Vital-Shok and it is more available and comes in 25-round boxes. So this is what I use for defensive purposes most of the time. It keeps everything inside the torso of a B27 out to 25-yards. That's good enough for my needs.

    Of course - when in doubt, Federal TruBall slugs are available for 20s. I'd rather fling a 3/4 ounce slug than question my buckshot patterns.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 08-30-2018 at 10:31 PM.

  2. #22
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    Attachment 29689Attachment 29689

    That's #1 Spartan 20 gauge from a Mossberg 500 at 15 yards.
    Damn. No choke?

    I guess now that I think about it, I've never run less than an IC and most of the time a Mod or IMOD choke in the 20s...

  3. #23
    I think it is clear that, today, the 12 gauge has benefited from load development in a way that the 20 gauge has not, and is superior to the 20 gauge as a buckshot delivery tool because of the Federal load. I suspect most people would also agree that a Brenneke slug in 20 gauge is likely to do anything that requires penetration as well as a Brenneke in 12 gauge, as the Brenneke 20 slug is similar construction to the 12 gauge slug, but actually has better sectional density.

    A point where we may disagree is the suitability of a 20 gauge for use by a woman. Back in the late 90’s and early 2000’s, my wife and I did a bunch of shotgun training with Gunsite, Awerbuck, Thunder Ranch, Jeans and Cain. During that period my wife specifically built a custom 20 gauge 870 for her use to replace the multiple 870 shotguns she had. The reason she specifically built a 20 gauge is she was able to make it much lighter in weight. Despite being an athletic, strong girl, she struggled to hold a twelve gauge with one arm when loading, and when shooting one hand only drills like Rolling Thunder. With a 20 gauge she could hold the shotgun with one arm and do the manipulations that come with operating a shotgun. When we put together a Benelli for her use around bears, she specifically chose the 20 gauge again because of her ability to hold it in one arm, which is a consideration for us as dog people where she might be holding a leash in one hand, and the crazy tangles many bear attacks become.

    So, while I get your thesis that the 12 is superior with buck, it may be in a heavier gun than a “ woman” can effectively handle, and I suspect most woman that do not have a need for slugs would be better off with some carbine in rifle or pistol caliber.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  4. #24
    Gender is irrelevant to the load not patterning effectively.

    The only reason gender is relevant is because women are being told they must shoot a 20ga because they are a woman.
    @GJM, Your situation is unique due to the wildlife you encounter. That's not comparable to someone living in an apartment or a subdivision. If a 12ga is too wieldy, perhaps a carbine would be a better option, but then gun shop guys and ignorant males wouldn't be able to tell the little lady to just point and shoot the shotgun and everything will be okay.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  5. #25
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    Damn. No choke?

    I guess now that I think about it, I've never run less than an IC and most of the time a Mod or IMOD choke in the 20s...
    I'll have to look at what choke is in the gun tonight, but I believe it's nothing more aggressive than modified.

    If someone is serious about using a 20 as a defensive shotgun...which I'm not opposed to, they just need to do more homework to make it happen...I strongly encourage sending the gun off to Vang Comp to have barrel work done on it.
    3/15/2016

  6. #26
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    The J-frame of shotguns.

    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    So, while I get your thesis that the 12 is superior with buck, it may be in a heavier gun than a “ woman” can effectively handle, and I suspect most woman that do not have a need for slugs would be better off with some carbine in rifle or pistol caliber.
    Though my wife is athletic and not particularly recoil sensitive, can operate a 12 GA shotgun reasonably well and finds it fun to shoot on a static range, she has told me that she would never choose it over a handgun or lightweight carbine in any practical setting due to the weight and bulk, especially if there was any possibility of having to maneuver or do anything at all without both hands on the weapon (e.g., manipulate light switches, door knobs, phone, children, etc).




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    Last edited by nalesq; 08-31-2018 at 08:24 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    packs a lot of hate into a trim package.
    Attachment 29685
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  8. #28
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    Need to manipulate light switches or door knobs reminds me of another detail I have not seen mentioned. I refer to the issue of deciding how to secure a shotgun or rifle if it must be set aside. One can holster a handgun and still maintain control. I remember our instructor advising that when outside the walls as in pursuing escaped inmates, that the guard with a shotgun or rifle should pair up with another armed with revolver only. This combination allows one to maintain control of the long gun. I'm way too out of date to say more.

  9. #29
    Member That Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willie View Post
    I remember our instructor advising that when outside the walls as in pursuing escaped inmates, that the guard with a shotgun or rifle should pair up with another armed with revolver only. This combination allows one to maintain control of the long gun. I'm way too out of date to say more.
    These days, we have these things called "slings" that enable the user of a long gun to free their hands while simultaneously retaining control of the weapon.

    (Actually and to be fair, back in the day, military issue shotguns didn't come with a sling either. So I have faced the same issue of "okay, now what do I do with this thing". Which in retrospect seems so silly that each shotgun I own has its own sling that stays on the gun.)

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    These days, we have these things called "slings"
    A sling is to a long arm what a holster is to a handgun. Even if you pocket a (premade) field expedient paracord, it is better than nothing at all when you need both hands...

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