The J-frame of shotguns.

[RevolverRob]

Uh?

"Here, ma'am. Take this 20ga shotgun because you are too tiny and frail to handle a man's 12ga, but load it with 3" magnum shells so that it will kick just as much or more than a 12ga low recoil shell."

An excellent point. I’m beginning to wonder if an individual who can’t wield a 12-gauge pump or semi due to weight/size might consider a double gun loaded with low-recoil Fed.

While short doubles do recoil quite a bit, they are quite handy and “wieldable” compared to other shotguns.

[GJM]

My wife is a very skilled shooter, very strong physically, and not recoil sensitive, as she for example, shot a .416 Remington in Africa for buffalo and plains game. At 5-7 and 116 pounds, she is unable to hold a combat equipped 12 gauge extended with one arm, to quickly perform the kind of manipulations that come in an intense shotgun class like taught by Awerbuck, Jeans, Cain and Gunsite. In the 90’s we built her a slicked up 870 20 gauge, and she successfully used that in a slew of classes. Yes, it probably recoiled more than a 12 gauge with low recoil buck, but that was a secondary issue to her, compared to being able to manipulate the shotgun at a high level. Now she has a Benelli M2 20 gauge which is still light and maneuverable but shoots mo better.

[jlw]

My wife is a very skilled shooter, very strong physically, and not recoil sensitive, as she for example, shot a .416 Remington in Africa for buffalo and plains game. At 5-7 and 116 pounds, she is unable to hold a combat equipped 12 gauge extended with one arm, to quickly perform the kind of manipulations that come in an intense shotgun class like taught by Awerbuck, Jeans, Cain and Gunsite. In the 90’s we built her a slicked up 870 20 gauge, and she successfully used that in a slew of classes. Yes, it probably recoiled more than a 12 gauge with low recoil buck, but that was a secondary issue to her, compared to being able to manipulate the shotgun at a high level. Now she has a Benelli M2 20 gauge which is still light and maneuverable but shoots mo better.

Your wife is not the target recipient of such ill informed advice of "Little lady you need this j-frame...".

You are proving the premise of the original post to be true.

[willie]

Uh?

"Here, ma'am. Take this 20ga shotgun because you are too tiny and frail to handle a man's 12ga, but load it with 3" magnum shells so that it will kick just as much or more than a 12ga low recoil shell."

Who recommended giving a 3 inch mag 20 ga to a frail person?

The 20 ga will never equal a 12 ga for self defense. Those who are not frail, have only a 20ga and wish not to buy a 12, should not overlook using a 3 inch shell. I have the 5 common shotgun gauges spread throughout action types. I'm in the process of setting up a standard weight 20 ga to be stone reliable with buckshot. Having the weight of the 12 ga and the advantage of the 1100's gas mechanism, it recoils softly. If I still had an 1100 12 ga, I would set it up for low recoil buckshot as well. I'm planning for the future which in my case will be advanced serious disability in a very few years. I'm having fun in the meantime.

Now for some thread drift about low recoil buckshot. Some may not know that it may or may not function reliably in semi auto's. Does Hornady still make two versions with one version labeled for semi auto's? When Remington introduced the excellent 1187, they produced a shotgun that would function with 23/4 inch birdshot through 3 inch magnum offerings. Oddly, the law enforcement version was set up in such a way that it would not function with the light bird shot ammo. Low recoil buckshot loads did not work either. The reasons were the size of the barrel's gas ports and the short barrel length in the l.e. version.

Curious about this, I called the late Frank Smith who was one of their warranty repair persons. He explained that whacking the barrel from hunting lengths to the shorter length found in the l.e. version reduced pressure within the barrel. Said another way, the hunting barrel's longer length allowed an ideal pressure curve to be maintained. Whacking the barrel(his term), affected the curve. The 1187 with the shorter l.e. barrel was reliable with full power loads only. Remington engineers elected to set up the weapon to function in this manner. Once again we see an idiosyncrasy of a l.e. weapon derived from a sporting firearm. So when reducing barrel length of a sporting 1100 or 1187, it may be necessary to open up the gas ports to permit reliable function with low recoil buckshot. A 12 ga 1100 set up in this fashion to function with low recoil buckshot would indeed be soft shooting.

I have no idea whether or not current 12 ga semi auto security shotguns will function reliably with low recoil buckshot.
Perhaps Beretta 1301 owners will chime in.

In the past, I whacked the barrel of a Browning 10 ga pump gun. Recoil separated men from boys.

[Duelist]

In keeping with the original post, do the 3” Magnums pattern better than the 2 3/4” 20 gauge buck?

Accuracy not withstanding, when you talk about slugs over penetration is a concern for those of us that don’t have to contend with large, furry critters with claws and teeth.

I haven’t patterned them but it was my understanding that 3” shells in a 20 pattern worse than a standard shell.

[jlw]

Who recommended giving a 3 inch mag 20 ga to a frail person?

The 20 ga will never equal a 12 ga for self defense. Those who are not frail, have only a 20ga and wish not to buy a 12, should not overlook using a 3 inch shell. I have the 5 common shotgun gauges spread throughout action types. I'm in the process of setting up a standard weight 20 ga to be stone reliable with buckshot. Having the weight of the 12 ga and the advantage of the 1100's gas mechanism, it recoils softly. If I still had an 1100 12 ga, I would set it up for low recoil buckshot as well. I'm planning for the future which in my case will be advanced serious disability in a very few years. I'm having fun in the meantime.

Now for some thread drift about low recoil buckshot. Some may not know that it may or may not function reliably in semi auto's. Does Hornady still make two versions with one version labeled for semi auto's? When Remington introduced the excellent 1187, they produced a shotgun that would function with 23/4 inch birdshot through 3 inch magnum offerings. Oddly, the law enforcement version was set up in such a way that it would not function with the light bird shot ammo. Low recoil buckshot loads did not work either. The reasons were the size of the barrel's gas ports and the short barrel length in the l.e. version.

Curious about this, I called the late Frank Smith who was one of their warranty repair persons. He explained that whacking the barrel from hunting lengths to the shorter length found in the l.e. version reduced pressure within the barrel. Said another way, the hunting barrel's longer length allowed an ideal pressure curve to be maintained. Whacking the barrel(his term), affected the curve. The 1187 with the shorter l.e. barrel was reliable with full power loads only. Remington engineers elected to set up the weapon to function in this manner. Once again we see an idiosyncrasy of a l.e. weapon derived from a sporting firearm. So when reducing barrel length of a sporting 1100 or 1187, it may be necessary to open up the gas ports to permit reliable function with low recoil buckshot. A 12 ga 1100 set up in this fashion to function with low recoil buckshot would indeed be soft shooting.

I have no idea whether or not current 12 ga semi auto security shotguns will function reliably with low recoil buckshot.
Perhaps Beretta 1301 owners will chime in.

In the past, I whacked the barrel of a Browning 10 ga pump gun. Recoil separated men from boys.

The original post was in reference to well meaning people to suggesting 20ga to women because "little ladys" can't handle a 12ga.

[jlw]

Here is the wording in the original post:

The 20ga is the J-frame of shotguns. Well intentioned people tell the "little lady" that she can't handle a 12ga and convince her to go with a 20ga.

The problem is a complete dearth of a quality defensive buckshot load in 20ga. None of the available stuff patterns anywhere close to FFC.

This thread was intended to be specifically about the recommending of 20ga shotguns to women based upon the belief that women can't handle a 12ga.

[willie]

You are correct. I must read more closely or perhaps stay out of old lady threads and spend my time in the Hot Chick threads. They are more fun anyway. I'm looking forward to a gun oil thread where people become enraged and tell each other they're full of shit. On another forum during in the midst of a gun oil thread I told a member that he was a stinker and almost told him he was full of shit.

[OlongJohnson]

To be fair, the first line of your OP doesn't specify what it is about the 12ga she can't handle. Size/weight or recoil.

The second line implies the perceived problem is all about the lack of high-end buckshot loads, not necessarily that recoil can be just as stout. Several posters have discussed patterning results; even with a 12ga, FFC should be checked for patterning.

I have a friend who made sure his fairly short though strong teenage daughter was trained in pistol, carbine and shotgun. He is clear that the 20ga recoils just as hard or harder than the 12, but she prefers it due to the size/weight.

I'll say that an 870 20ga with a shorter but non-NFA barrel and rifle sights is a darned handy long gun. No lever hanging down below, no charging handle sticking out the side, lightweight, etc.

[jlw]

The reasoning often given is that women can’t handle the 12.

The primary problem with the 20 is the lack of quality defensive loads.