CCW Intervention in Mass Shootings

[peterb]

These events aren't nearly as black and white as you think they are. There are a lot of ways to fuck up. You can potentially get shot by 1) the shooter/shooters 2) LE 3) another dude like you. You have to avoid shooting 1) another good guy 2) everybody else.

If you have a clear understanding of who the bad guy is, an opportunity to shoot, and the ability to hit only him, go for it. You could also save some innocent lives by keeping your head and getting them out of harm's way.

This seems like a reasonable overview of rhe issues involved:
https://www.corneredcat.com/article/...of-a-stranger/

[LSP552]

Aside from interesting anecdotes, have their been any friendly fire incidents in active shooter situations, real world?

Not being sarcastic, I honestly don’t know, and can’t think of any off-hand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’m unaware of any specifically in active shooter cases but there are cases when uniform officers have shot plainclothes officers. There are ways to deconflict law enforcement operations but the risk is very real.

[blues]

I’m unaware of any specifically in active shooter cases but there are cases when uniform officers have shot plainclothes officers. There are ways to deconflict law enforcement operations but the risk is very real.

This was a problem back in NYC, made worse when the "color of the day" was broadcast on radio station WWRL to the delight of felons.

I can speak from personal experience about coming way too close to having met my maker at the hands of police while working an op in plain clothes.

[Lost River]

So just to add my 2 pennies..

A 1/2 dozen or so years back I was involved in a shooting on the job. I won't to into a bunch of details, but here are a few points that are relevant.


#1, So many years AFTER Columbine, there is no damned way there should have been so many people standing around OUTSIDE a building, when the armed badguy was inside and innocent people were streaming out, like the place was on fire. Hell I arrived late, figuring it would be settled by the time I got there...

#2. I actually took the time to put on my old SAPI plates and grab my rifle, assuming (again that word) that there would be aggressive cops hunting the scumbag who was inside.

#3. When I approached I found out nobody was inside, but we had 40-50 cops outside. I ended up simultaneously going inside as a couple guys I knew saw me (they were the aggressive go-getter type cops) and entered from the front. We met in the lobby where I asked two simple questions which we should have had the intel on long ago (since this had started as a car chase and been going on for a good 20+ minutes by now before the big wreck and chase into the building the person went into.

I asked my friend 2 questions:

Where is he at? Answer: I don't know.

What does he look like? Answer: I don't know.


Unfortunately that is the reality of some situations.

Little to no intel, and what you have is questionable.



I had just said something to the effect of "lets go find him" when we heard gunfire coming from where I had just come from.

A few young troops from another outfit had followed me in, and gone up some stairs. One of them got shot for their efforts. When we reached them they were assisting out the shot officer. I asked where the bad guy was. They pointed up the stairwell.

A couple other guys got behind me and we worked our way up the stairwell, where we found him when he opened up on me, shooting a number of rounds at my face.

* The slow and methodical "Slice the Pie" technique works and saved me from catching a bullet in the face that day.




**** A poster mentioned someone touching another LEO's arm after a shooting, and the LEO being completely unaware. Apparently when the bad guy was shooting at me, I started cussing up a blue streak. I have always made a point of not swearing in public on the job, as I find it not professional. It was not until the AAR (after action review) when my friend brought this up that I was even aware of it. To this day, I don't have any recollection of it, but others there heard me cussing at the bad guy too.

I do remember being especially pissed as he was hiding behind a woman he had taken hostage and did not present a shot, so it was frustrating. In the end, he murdered one citizen and took the woman hostage for hours. With the combined effort of the guys that I was there with we managed to secure her release, but it was a long day in the stairwell.

The civilian that was killed was wearing all blue, was in town (if I recall right) working on some sort of service job, and we think was mistaken for an LEO.

Anyways, things rarely go right, even when you potentially have lots of resources at your fingertips. The badguys rarely read the script. Many times you are also fighting against total dipshit administrators who are frozen into inaction and paralyzed by indecision.

I won't go into details openly but i needed tools to end that situation decisively many hours earlier but was dealing with an administration that was too scared to make a decision, or give the officers the tools they needed. They were more concerned about themselves than they were about the woman who was being mentally tortured with a gun to her head for hours by a madman on meth, who should have been shot in the face many hours earlier.

That is reality.

[Lost River]

Friends,

I have to apologize a bit for the slight thread drift.

While my intent was to bring up some relevant/life lessons type points in regards to the subject, I did not mean for it to also be a venting session.


A few hours after typing it and re-reading it, I realize that some of that nonsense still greatly pisses me off.

Frankly, dealing with bad guys is usually the easy part.

Being deliberately sabotaged/denied the proper tools by administrators (who themselves have never done anything more dangerous than slip in the shower) who would rather risk having cops and citizens die, than incur any liability is the type of thing that makes me want to punch certain people in the face until I am tired and they are unrecognizable.

Rant off/.

[Jeff22]

Every year in the U.S. there are one or two incidents where responding patrol officers shoot an off duty cop or detective or undercover cop by mistake because, in the stress of an incident, they can't sort out the players.

It doesn't help if the person in plainclothes turns toward responding officers with their gun in their hands.

"Blue on blue" friendly fire incidents are certainly a possibility in situations of great stress, limited visibility (low light) or if some of the participants are dressed in plain clothes. Thinking about this possibility in advance and evaluating how you might avoid being mis-identified is a useful thing.

[Jeff22]

If you are out someplace where an active shooter incident suddenly erupts, you (obviously) have to decide if you're going to engage or not.

If you are there with family members, your first responsibility is to them. Do what you have to do to get them either out of the area or to a safer location. (I think that's true even if you're an off duty cop)

What you're armed with will largely determine the success of your potential involvement. If the active shooter has a shotgun and you have a five shot revolver and no reloads, then optionally engaging might not be your best choice. If you have a Glock 19 and a reload available, that might give your a better chance, especially if you can engage from behind cover and/or by surprise.

Where is available cover and what are your escape routes? When was the last time you practiced engaging beyond 25 yards with that particular platform? Are there a lot of panicked people trying to exit the kill zone getting in the way and preventing you from getting a clear shot at the suspect? Lots of things to consider.

[Lost River]

If you are out someplace where an active shooter incident suddenly erupts, you (obviously) have to decide if you're going to engage or not.

If you are there with family members, your first responsibility is to them. Do what you have to do to get them either out of the area or to a safer location. (I think that's true even if you're an off duty cop)

What you're armed with will largely determine the success of your potential involvement. If the active shooter has a shotgun and you have a five shot revolver and no reloads, then optionally engaging might not be your best choice. If you have a Glock 19 and a reload available, that might give your a better chance, especially if you can engage from behind cover and/or by surprise.

Where is available cover and what are your escape routes? When was the last time you practiced engaging beyond 25 yards with that particular platform? Are there a lot of panicked people trying to exit the kill zone getting in the way and preventing you from getting a clear shot at the suspect? Lots of things to consider.

I definitely will have to disagree with this part. While I don't advocate carrying mouse guns, The fact is that especially when you are only dealing with one adversary, you don't have to shoot a bunch, you simply have to shoot well. I regularly carry an N Frame .44 in the winter time under my jacket, after having been out doing recreational type things, instead of my usual Glock or 1911.

If I swing by town on my way back home, I don't normally switch back to a semi auto, and consider myself adequately armed. A shotgun armed assailant (using your example) is not likely to require many rounds to change his behavior.

Back to the topic of not shooting a bunch, simply shooting well, I have tried to relay that to a good many people over the years. The point I would make is that perhaps they should not look at the high capacity semi auto as an opportunity to shoot a lot, but an opportunity to manipulate less. The large on board capacity of the typical G17/19, etc allows a person to focus on the threat, look for an exit, shield loved ones, block a door, etc, instead of reloading. The fact is that they have options.

I am definitely an advocate of large capacity firearms for work/defense, etc, but that does not mean I have to actually shoot every round I have in the magazine.

People have developed a mindset that if they have a high capacity weapon, that means that they need to shoot a lot. Shooting well would be a better course of action.

[HCM]

I am aware of an officer dressed in civilian clothes who was tragically killed during an incident by responding on-duty uniformed officers...

I’m aware of more than one.

This particular one was a friend of mine:

https://www.odmp.org/officer/20777-p...ey-j-breitkopf

[Totem Polar]

The point I would make is that perhaps they should not look at the high capacity semi auto as an opportunity to shoot a lot, but an opportunity to manipulate less.

Obviously, you’re not contented to post the best family/outdoor lifestyle pics on the forum; now you’re just making sense in print, too. #truth

- - -
And

While there are obvious parallels that can be drawn between blue/blue mistakens and arned CCWs, I don’t personally believe that it’s a 1:1 parallel (any more than blue/homeowner is) because of differing obligations/missions and locations on the space/time continuum. Could it happen? Sure. Has it (CCW/responder) happened? So far we’ve got the hostage anecdote—which I personally feel is more apropos than UC/uniform MIs.

But I’m just speculating as much as anyone.