CCW Intervention in Mass Shootings

[Hambo]

Ok, then take cover and do nothing to save a innocent life

These events aren't nearly as black and white as you think they are. There are a lot of ways to fuck up. You can potentially get shot by 1) the shooter/shooters 2) LE 3) another dude like you. You have to avoid shooting 1) another good guy 2) everybody else.

If you have a clear understanding of who the bad guy is, an opportunity to shoot, and the ability to hit only him, go for it. You could also save some innocent lives by keeping your head and getting them out of harm's way.

[WobblyPossum]

I've decided that if I'm ever off duty and find myself in an active shooter situation, I will engage the shooter if I'm able. However, I've also accepted the idea that by doing so I have a much greater than zero chance of being burned down by another responding LEO or a CCW holder. It is what it is.

[GuanoLoco]

Permanent self sacrifice, including the future sacrifices of your dependents, is a distinct possibility.

Not to mention the risk of making a bad call.

[Kukuforguns]

Ok, then take cover and do nothing to save a innocent life

I didn't say or imply that I would do nothing. I don't know what I would do. There certainly are scenarios in which I have morally committed to acting. I hope those scenarios never happen. If those scenarios do happen, I would prefer to be there than people who have not morally committed to acting.

Have I now passed your moral purity test?

[wsr]

These events aren't nearly as black and white as you think they are. There are a lot of ways to fuck up. You can potentially get shot by 1) the shooter/shooters 2) LE 3) another dude like you. You have to avoid shooting 1) another good guy 2) everybody else.


If you have a clear understanding of who the bad guy is, an opportunity to shoot, and the ability to hit only him, go for it. You could also save some innocent lives by keeping your head and getting them out of harm's way.

The part in blue to me (to most I would hope) is a given. The issue I'm having is those that seem over worried about getting shot by others...of course it's a possibility but as I wrote earlier I don't think it's a big enough worry to not engage

In a nutshell the way I'm seeing this is there are innocent people getting killed, I'm there, with enough info, a weapon and the ability to stop it...I'm going to stop it...and possibly getting shot by another good guy is not a good enough reason to not engage. I may be missing understanding but it seems kuku is arguing that is the reason people shouldn't ....i couldn't live with that decision

[wsr]

I didn't say or imply that I would do nothing. I don't know what I would do. There certainly are scenarios in which I have morally committed to acting. I hope those scenarios never happen. If those scenarios do happen, I would prefer to be there than people who have not morally committed to acting.

Have I now passed your moral purity test?

Don't get upset, it wasn't meant as a attack just a direct statement
It seems to me that you were saying you wouldn't act...you said you wouldn't trust your life to my premise...there is no way to totally mitigate you possibly getting shot by a LEO in a situation like this so you either take your chances or you dont...you said you wouldn't I just took you at your word , if I'm mistaken I apologise but then I really don't understand what your argument is

[Kukuforguns]

Don't get upset, it wasn't meant as a attack just a direct statement
It seems to me that you were saying you wouldn't act...you said you wouldn't trust your life to my premise...there is no way to totally mitigate you possibly getting shot by a LEO in a situation like this so you either take your chances or you dont...you said you wouldn't I just took you at your word , if I'm mistaken I apologise but then I really don't understand what your argument is

You seem (from my viewpoint) to be viewing things in a very black/white context. If I were in a situation in which I used a weapon to eliminate a threat (or even a situation in which I was merely present at a crime of violence), I now have options.
1) I can sit there with a deployed deadly weapon and wait for law enforcement to arrive and then trust law enforcement will correctly identify me as a non-threat. This is the option you state (at least as I understand you) you will exercise.
2) I can communicate with law enforcement that I am present and armed and will comply with the commands of law enforcement and then trust that my communication will be accurately conveyed to responding officers, trust the responding officers will believe, and trust the responding officers can identify me.
3) I can leave the scene altogether.
4) I can remove my self to a safe location, disarm, and contact law enforcement.
5) I can stay at the location with an unrestrained (presumably inert) threat and disarm and wait for law enforcement to arrive and trust they will correctly identify me as a non-threat.
6) Other responses.

If I am present at violent crime scene with responding officers, I intend to act in a way that will minimize both the potential that responding law enforcement will misidentify me and also minimize the potential that responding law enforcement will use force against me.

This post took a lot longer to craft than my initial comment. I consider the two to be entirely consistent. On the other hand, extreme brevity is subject to misinterpretation.

edited to add emphasis

[wsr]

You seem (from my viewpoint) to be viewing things in a very black/white context. If I were in a situation in which I used a weapon to eliminate a threat (or even a situation in which I was merely present at a crime of violence), I now have options.
1) I can sit there with a deployed deadly weapon and wait for law enforcement to arrive and then trust law enforcement will correctly identify me as a non-threat. This is the option you state (at least as I understand you) you will exercise.
2) I can communicate with law enforcement that I am present and armed and will comply with the commands of law enforcement and then trust that my communication will be accurately conveyed to responding officers, trust the responding officers will believe, and trust the responding officers can identify me.
3) I can leave the scene altogether.
4) I can remove my self to a safe location, disarm, and contact law enforcement.
5) I can stay at the location with an unrestrained (presumably inert) threat and disarm and wait for law enforcement to arrive and trust they will correctly identify me as a non-threat.
6) Other responses.

If I am present at violent crime scene with responding officers, I intend to act in a way that will minimize both the potential that responding law enforcement will misidentify me and also minimize the potential that responding law enforcement will use force against me.

This post took a lot longer to craft than my initial comment. I consider the two to be entirely consistent. On the other hand, extreme brevity is subject to misinterpretation.

edited to add emphasis

See we are not that far off from each other, I don't know why you gave you the impression in #1
Im not advocating hanging around holding your gun for no reason, I was simply addressing what would be the reality of the situation...you are not going to do a quick draw put a couple in the bad guy and immediately reholster, there is going to be a certain amount of time both before and after the shooting that you will (or should) have you gun out
During that time of course your chances of being shot are elevated but not near as much as people are making out IMO and really shouldn't enter into the equation on whether you should engage or not only in how you will engage and what to do after
Hopefully I made my point clearer and not more confusing

[GardoneVT]

Remember how confusing the media reports are after every mass shooting? CNN says X injured, Fox says Y, somedood on TV says a different number then those two. LE isn’t immune from that - at the start of an incident data is likely fragmentary and potentially inaccurate. Intercepting the perpetrator first requires knowledge of how many there are, and people tend to be poor witnesses when they’re scared to death. LE responders might come in thinking there’s multiple shooters...or just one and it’s you, because an evacuee saw your drawn gun and assumed you were the perpetrator.

The best way IMO to avoid a tragic error is to get out of the situation as fast as possible. If you encounter the perp between the evac door and yourself , act accordingly. Otherwise get yourself and anyone nearby out and let the team of armed and prepared first responders do their job.

[DocGKR]

I am aware of an officer dressed in civilian clothes who was tragically killed during an incident by responding on-duty uniformed officers...