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Thread: CCW Intervention in Mass Shootings

  1. #21
    Tactical Nobody Guerrero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    Thank you.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ulture/554351/

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    About 2 years ago the Colorado Springs Police Department did an all day active shooter exercise at one of our local churches. They asked church security people to come be role playing extras in the scenarios in exchange for some free training.

    In almost every scenario the "security team member" got "shot" even though they were in a uniform.
    This is a good point!

    Ed Monk brought up in his class the ridiculousness of MOST active shooter LE involved training. RARELY do the scenarios mirror what has happened in real life, in the past. THAT is a problem.

    Conversely, I killed FAR MORE people in mock scenes and simulations, than I ever have on live patients and in real-life encounters.

    When the scenario begins with, “Here’s your cup and your eye pro, and a sims gun. Solve the problem!” That most always results in someone getting shot due to the situational bias. Southnarc does a good job of negotiating that training pitfall with MUC, but not everyone does, and CERTAINLY most LEO training doesn’t.


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  3. #23
    My thoughts from just a civilian POV:

    I don't see a mass shooting going down where LE is on site with guns drawn in less than 3-5 minutes. I think that's a timeframe that allows unholstering and making initial shots while making space and getting to rifle-proof cover. If still within range to make shots from cover at that point, go do that, also obviously using shooter's reloads/malfunctions as opportunities. If we're 3-7 minutes into the fight and the shooter is still going, it seems like the best option to stay in rifle-proof cover, holster and turn back into a grey civilian until the event is over, because that's about when SWAT is gonna come in with rifles to finish the task properly, you're not going to be able to offer them any useful assistance, and accordingly that's a time when it's going to be very helpful for you to look like you need to be evacuated with everyone else. There'll be plenty of time to explain later.
    Jmho
    Last edited by STI; 08-29-2018 at 12:11 PM.

  4. #24
    Analytically, I believe the focus on “stop the spree shooter” for an ordinary armed citizen is misplaced. Perhaps that focus is due to the fact most experienced instructors tend to come from LE and military backgrounds where their professions by nature required direct engagement of a mass shooter. That established , while no one wants to let an attacker commit mass carnage if it can be helped the practical reality is an armed citizen is basically an evacuee with slightly more survival options then his unarmed peers.

    Intel on who’s a good guy, who else is armed and NOT allied with the perpetrator, how many perpetrators, off duty LEOs on site, on duty LEOs close by chance who dropped their lunch and ran to the scene are all unknown. Add in the high likliehood a pistol armed citizen with a high concealment handgun could be going up against a group of rifle armed perpetrators with training and dedication, and all these players acting in the same place at the same time combined with innocent bystanders is a textbook recipe for a charlie-foxtrot.

    IMO; the objective of an armed citizen in such a fluid situation is getting themselves and nearby bystanders directly out of the conflict area if feasible, or barricaded in a safe spot with communication to LE if not. Period. Anything else is a very high stakes gamble.
    The Minority Marksman.
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  5. #25
    Member ubervic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    Analytically, I believe the focus on “stop the spree shooter” for an ordinary armed citizen is misplaced. Perhaps that focus is due to the fact most experienced instructors tend to come from LE and military backgrounds where their professions by nature required direct engagement of a mass shooter. That established , while no one wants to let an attacker commit mass carnage if it can be helped the practical reality is an armed citizen is basically an evacuee with slightly more survival options then his unarmed peers.

    Intel on who’s a good guy, who else is armed and NOT allied with the perpetrator, how many perpetrators, off duty LEOs on site, on duty LEOs close by chance who dropped their lunch and ran to the scene are all unknown. Add in the high likliehood a pistol armed citizen with a high concealment handgun could be going up against a group of rifle armed perpetrators with training and dedication, and all these players acting in the same place at the same time combined with innocent bystanders is a textbook recipe for a charlie-foxtrot.

    IMO; the objective of an armed citizen in such a fluid situation is getting themselves and nearby bystanders directly out of the conflict area if feasible, or barricaded in a safe spot with communication to LE if not. Period. Anything else is a very high stakes gamble.
    I agree with the core assertion. Far, far too many variables can potentially come to bear AGAINST the good guy/gal despite the most sincere, noble and galant intentions.

  6. #26
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman A. House DDS View Post
    If tactically feasible, I plan on yelling, “STOP! POLICE!” at top volume, while telling everyone in sight to call 911 and tell them what I look like and that I’m going after the bad guy.

    If tactically feasible! If not, I’ll run the sash and hope for the best. The old outcome hierarchy, from most desirable to least desirable:

    1. Live hero
    2. Dead hero
    3. Dead coward
    4. Live coward

    Not meant to be smarmy, but I think if you DO decide to get involved in one of these situations and get into the gunplay, do it right, keep it holstered if not on a threat or shooting, and maintain a professional appearance when armed in public. As John Hearne says, (words to the effect of) “If you’re carrying and not in uniform, you should be wearing a collared shirt.”


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    Regarding the #1 - #4 and where one ends up. A situation that presents itself could run the gamut from blatantly obvious (shocks the conscience) to that's not right but none of my business. In many places, especially where I live one who intercedes successfully probably is not going to be hailed a hero.

    Considerations for one's willingness to employ deadly force in defense of another:
    Are you responsible for a family and the primary reason you carry is so you can fulfill your responsibilities? Then perhaps a little soul searching up front might help one determine where they will stick their nose. Not everyone walking the street has the same obligations which may be seriously impacted if they chose to become the good Samaritan.

    One might think, if not me then who? Further rationalizing if I were in that situation I would hope someone who had the capability would come to my aid.

    Another might just think, not my tribe, not my problem. That unfortunate individual could have prepared themselves like I have but apparently they didn't. They chose poorly!

    I believe everyone should decide if they have a line in the sand that shouldn't be crossed when it comes to what they would act upon. Or if their life situation allows them to act on behalf of another. No decent person would be out looking for a chance to be the hero but the intelligent person should understand where their actions may take them.

  7. #27
    Member 23JAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    Regarding the #1 - #4 and where one ends up. A situation that presents itself could run the gamut from blatantly obvious (shocks the conscience) to that's not right but none of my business. In many places, especially where I live one who intercedes successfully probably is not going to be hailed a hero.

    Considerations for one's willingness to employ deadly force in defense of another:
    Are you responsible for a family and the primary reason you carry is so you can fulfill your responsibilities? Then perhaps a little soul searching up front might help one determine where they will stick their nose. Not everyone walking the street has the same obligations which may be seriously impacted if they chose to become the good Samaritan.

    One might think, if not me then who? Further rationalizing if I were in that situation I would hope someone who had the capability would come to my aid.

    Another might just think, not my tribe, not my problem. That unfortunate individual could have prepared themselves like I have but apparently they didn't. They chose poorly!

    I believe everyone should decide if they have a line in the sand that shouldn't be crossed when it comes to what they would act upon. Or if their life situation allows them to act on behalf of another. No decent person would be out looking for a chance to be the hero but the intelligent person should understand where their actions may take them.
    ^^^This^^^ Very well said sir.
    212

  8. #28
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypher View Post
    About 2 years ago the Colorado Springs Police Department did an all day active shooter exercise at one of our local churches. They asked church security people to come be role playing extras in the scenarios in exchange for some free training.

    In almost every scenario the "security team member" got "shot" even though they were in a uniform.
    The only thing that shows is that people engaged in FoF drills tend to shoot each other, all else considered.

    In real space, the liklihood is that either the event will be over by the time police arrive, or, nobody is already on scene to stop the spree, so the event won’t be over when police arrive.

    I have no doubt that CCWers and police trying to occupy the same space, time, and activities is setting the stage for a tragic goatrope, but I see CCW permit holder and ROs as occupying different spots along a timeline. Might only be by a few minutes, but that’s still a missed intersection.

    Or, I’m all wet, in which case there will be 1+n exemplars of the active shooter goatrope having actually happened. Which gets back to Dr. House’s query. JMO.
    Last edited by Totem Polar; 08-29-2018 at 04:50 PM.
    ”But in the end all of these ideas just manufacture new criminals when the problem isn't a lack of criminals.” -JRB

  9. #29
    Member GuanoLoco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidheshooter View Post
    The only thing that shows is that people engaged in FoF drills tend to shoot each other, all else considered.

    In real space, the liklihood is that either the event will be over by the time police arrive, or, nobody is already on scene to stop the spree, so the event won’t be over when police arrive.

    I have no doubt that CCWers and police trying to occupy the same space, time, and activities is setting the stage for a tragic goatrope, but I see CCW permit holder and ROs as occupying different spots along a timeline. Might only be by a few minutes, but that’s still a missed intersection.

    Or, I’m all wet, in which case there will be 1+n exemplars of the active shooter goatrope having actually happened. Which gets back to Dr. House’s query. JMO.
    Why the heck would anyone want to get all geared up and amped up for FOF drills where no one shoots or gets shot? Just use a blue gun for that.
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  10. #30
    Member Kukuforguns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wsr View Post
    I think the friendly fire worry is grossly exaggerated, unless the LEO/SWAT/other random good guy shows up right when you are in the process of shooting the bad guy they aren't going to just start shooting (for the most case) they are going to confront you verbally first then make their decision

    If you are shot but you managed to stop a mass killing at a couple dead vs 5 or 10 or 20 then you did a great thing...doing the right thing doesn't shield you from bad consequences
    This doesn't exactly fill me with confidence. I've interviewed officers who were unaware after a shooting that a partner had come and touched their arm to announce their presence. We're all aware of the perception oddities that occur in high-stress situations.

    I'm not criticizing your statement or saying you're wrong. I just have zero confidence I'll hear an officer attempting to give me directions.

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