Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ... 678
Results 71 to 78 of 78

Thread: CCW Intervention in Mass Shootings

  1. #71
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    In the desert, looking for water.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enel View Post
    Fixed for you. The case I remember where the cop used a crap ton of rounds was finally ended when he realized he was low, focused on the fundamentals, and made the hits required to end the fight. Of course this officer drew the wrong lesson, IMO, and now carries a crap ton more ammunition.
    First, I read that case (the crap ton more ammo guy). He hit the assailant a bunch of times. Many were non-survivable wounds, but the guy didn't go down till hit in the head. He was using excellent marksmanship, and a .45. The perp was a Swiss cheese by the time the fight was done - a human bag that would not hold blood. But he did not bleed out fast enough to end the fight.

    Second, that is only one of the cases I am aware of wherein ammunition capacity, a backup gun, and/or reloads mattered.

  2. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Baldanders View Post
    Any documented cases of a civilian CCH permit holder involved in a "good shoot" reloading during the incident?

    About the only way I can see stopping a mass shooting is if I have the good luck to be behind the shooter when he starts his rampage, regardless of type of handgun I have on me.
    I remember @Mas writing about a retired Marine in Florida that was involved in a shooting during an armed robbery. If I remember right, he went to reload but dropped his spare mag and ended up transitioning to his BUG. I can’t remember if more shots were fired after that point.

    There was also the off-duty officer that engaged the active shooter at the Trolley Square Mall in Utah back in 2007. He was carrying an officer-size 1911 with 5 rounds in the magazine. He had no reload, and ended up not doing much shooting because of it.

  3. #73
    If anyone has a magic Dark Tower style crystal ball that tells the future of every fight we may have , please share at once.

    From the nature of the last two pages of posts , this crystal ball appears to be a real thing.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  4. #74
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Madison, Wisconsin
    I re-read the comments I made a few days ago and I fail to see any point in there where I said "You should shoot a lot and miss . . . "

    Somebody's jumping to conclusions. In a gunfight, only hits count, and a gun with a high capacity OR the ability to reload quickly allows you to maintain continuity of fire and gives you more chances to HIT in a shorter period of time.

    And before somebody else responds to what they thought I said, rather than what I actually said, I am NOT advocating suppressive fire as a technique to engage the active shooter at the shopping mall

  5. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    Analytically, I believe the focus on “stop the spree shooter” for an ordinary armed citizen is misplaced. Perhaps that focus is due to the fact most experienced instructors tend to come from LE and military backgrounds where their professions by nature required direct engagement of a mass shooter. That established , while no one wants to let an attacker commit mass carnage if it can be helped the practical reality is an armed citizen is basically an evacuee with slightly more survival options then his unarmed peers.

    Intel on who’s a good guy, who else is armed and NOT allied with the perpetrator, how many perpetrators, off duty LEOs on site, on duty LEOs close by chance who dropped their lunch and ran to the scene are all unknown. Add in the high likliehood a pistol armed citizen with a high concealment handgun could be going up against a group of rifle armed perpetrators with training and dedication, and all these players acting in the same place at the same time combined with innocent bystanders is a textbook recipe for a charlie-foxtrot.

    IMO; the objective of an armed citizen in such a fluid situation is getting themselves and nearby bystanders directly out of the conflict area if feasible, or barricaded in a safe spot with communication to LE if not. Period. Anything else is a very high stakes gamble.
    In the scenario you describe (multiple rifle shooters), I am curious as to what you consider a safe spot. I don't know of many building that have kick-proof doors and walls and glass designed to stop multiple rifle bullets.
    Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer.

  6. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by David C. View Post
    In the scenario you describe (multiple rifle shooters), I am curious as to what you consider a safe spot. I don't know of many building that have kick-proof doors and walls and glass designed to stop multiple rifle bullets.

    The number of variables that impact the outcome of a gunfight are so numerous it’s literally beyond accurate computerized prediction. Determining an armed response strategy fails on Step One- we can’t predict who the attackers are, what weapons theyll use, how many of them there are, if there are explosives involved, if there are good guys on scene , or even where they’ll be an attack. Sad thing is you might be on site hearing the shots and still have no clue about any of those details except the last one, vaguely.


    Without advance intel on any of those details the best fallback plan is to get out of dodge. Now if the “action” literally happenes right in front of your face then those details will be horrifically answered in what will feel like the shortest and also the longest moment of your life. Likewise if you encounter the Bad Guy/Guys/Girls/ en route to the fire exit.

    Playing the game of “carry X gun because Y” is a nonstarter ; that’s basically asking how many angels can dance on a nanobots head. One could just haul around an AR15 pistol everywhere, but fat lot of good that’s going to do you against a remote detonated truck bomb.....
    Last edited by GardoneVT; 09-06-2018 at 12:42 PM.
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  7. #77
    Site Supporter JohnO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    CT (behind Enemy lines)
    Quote Originally Posted by David C. View Post
    In the scenario you describe (multiple rifle shooters), I am curious as to what you consider a safe spot. I don't know of many building that have kick-proof doors and walls and glass designed to stop multiple rifle bullets.
    Good solid cover can be hard to find. Cover is also dependent upon the the weapon system being deployed against it. There is far more concealment available.

    Choosing to intervene some consideration should be given to going up against a superior weapon system. Consider the possibility of a failure to stop situation. There are no absolutes. You can do everything correctly, inflict mortal wounds but not stop a perpetrator. Engaging a bad actor wearing body armor armed with a high powered rifle would render a good guy with a sidearm at a serious disadvantage. I'm not saying don't do it, just understand the possibilities.

  8. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    Good solid cover can be hard to find. Cover is also dependent upon the the weapon system being deployed against it. There is far more concealment available.

    Choosing to intervene some consideration should be given to going up against a superior weapon system. Consider the possibility of a failure to stop situation. There are no absolutes. You can do everything correctly, inflict mortal wounds but not stop a perpetrator. Engaging a bad actor wearing body armor armed with a high powered rifle would render a good guy with a sidearm at a serious disadvantage. I'm not saying don't do it, just understand the possibilities.
    I agree with everything you say. I also agree with most that GardoneVT said.

    In the scenario GardoneVT described, when confronted by multiple BGs with rifles; trying to hole up somewhere might be a bad choice. If I saw lots of rifles then I would assume it was not the typical spree shooting but a Beslan-type terror attack. In that circumstance, I personally believe you have to break contact completely if able or act with speed, surprise, and violence of action. I have no illusion about stopping or surviving such an attack.
    Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •