Opinions on USPSA/IDPA matches for LE

[scw2]

I'm a USPSA GM in production and on a full time SWAT team for the last 6 years. Working on my GM in Limited and PCC. I'm now in charge of firearms training for my team.

Shooting competition makes shooting subconscious, freeing up your mind to work the tactical problem in front of you.

I was recently re-reading an older post (annoying rightness of of bolke and dobbs) and, while long, it seems relevant here given the LE context and the discussion between those pushing technical abilities and those for whom the gun is a tool.

I think the part about subconscious ability and focusing on shooting at an appropriate pace that allows for high accountability and continual assessment and working of the tactical problem stood out to me the most as the key takeaway lessons for anyone here that might carry a gun, whether as a civilian or for a living.

[Lost River]

Been shooting USPSA for 25 years. A cop for 23. Haven’t found a drawback and don’t expect to.

I was shooting even USPSA before I joined LE.

Without question it made my skill level leaps and bounds above the average cop. It also made my skill level substantially better than the average LE instructor, who's only claim to fame was their agency sent them to an NRA instructor school (I have been to a number of them, don't get me started, that is a subject for another day).



Throughout my career, before my career schedule and going oversees essentially got in the way of shooting competition, I considered LE quals to be a chance to encourage other LEOs to come shoot USPSA or other shooting sports after they watched me shoot ( and I am/was just "OK"). Invariably they would seek advice on how to shoot better during these times (even at the one place I was not the instructor, since the good old boy there did not want anybody else on his turf, bruising his ego, or getting in on his pilfering ammo into his garage, etc. He simply was a dogshit shot, terrible instructor, etc, But he could strut like a beer bellied peacock with a cigar in his mouth, wearing a cowboy hat..not kidding. The literal version of all hat-no cows).

Anyways...

I have not read the rest of the thread, but knowing the quality of the people, and the mindset of majority of the seasoned vets here, I would imagine I am just parroting what they have said.

Shoot USPSA. Encourage your guys to.

If they stick with it long enough, instead of raising their hands on the range when they have a malfunction, they will simply clear it at a level of unconscious competence, and still make the times.

They will all be better for it.

[Jeff22]

I shoot both USPSA and IDPA fairly regularly and shoot PPC about once a year. USPSA and IDPA are best considered skill building exercises that have some training value and can be very entertaining. Any competitive event, of necessity, will not be able to duplicate the dynamics of a real gunfight.

But, depending upon the course of fire, there CAN be training value in the process, if you are shooting the IDPA classifier(s) or a USPSA classifier that measures basic marksmanship and gun-handling skills. The classifier matches of both disciplines and most IDPA courses of fire are at least semi-realistic in the marksmanship challenges presented.

In such competitions I've always used whatever my duty gun was at the time. Currently I most often use a Glock 19 in CCP in IDPA matches and a Glock 22 in production class in USPSA matches.

I’ve been shooting USPSA since 1978 and IDPA since 2001, at the local level. Generally speaking, I’m quite accurate and not particularly fast . . . .

I particularly like the USPSA Classifiers and the IDPA Classifier match(s) as methods to test basic skills. Also, several of the local USPSA clubs have LOTS more steel and movers and bobbers and so forth than what we have available at the police range, so the courses of fire they use on match days are much more innovative that what we can do during in-service training at the PD.

You'll get out of it what you put into it. Be safe and have fun with it. At the very least, shooting in matches can show you which skills to need to practice more . . .

Many clubs are now on the web and some post the course descriptions for upcoming stages on their web site. If clubs near you do this, you'll find this to be very useful. I don't look at the courses of fire in advance to figure out a "game plan" on how to shoot the course, but rather to get an idea of what skills I might need to practice before the match. (practice strong hand only and weak hand only shooting to start with, and engaging multiple targets from behind high & low cover)

Also, some clubs are more practically oriented, and some have more members who shoot purely as a competitive activity (usually the USPSA shooters, BUT NOT ALWAYS) and by looking at posted courses of fire you can determine which orientation the club has and if the matches they run have any value for what you're trying to accomplish. (Sometimes I'll look at the posted courses for one of the local clubs and if three out of five stages are "run & gun" 32 round field courses [which don't fit in with my training goals very well] I'll just go do something else that day . . . )

[GuanoLoco]

The inefficiency and lack of leadership in most local clubs is unnerving. The national organizations have no control over this issue. Showing up at a local match, paying cash to participate, and getting exactly what is described above kills it for me. As for getting involved to improve things, I spent several years doing so, including being a board member, and nothing improved. I was told instead to go away because I complained too much.

"If you don't like it, you can leave." That sort of thing.

I will still attend a couple of times a year, but no one can tell me anymore it matters when so much time is wasted trying to participate. Instead, take a class, learn to practice on your own more effectively, perhaps find a like-minded friend or two who is a fellow traveler in the art of the pistol. Lose the noise, the distractions, and the uncooperative attitudes. Keep smiling.

This is where I have gotten with all but my local USPSA matches and some of the better USPSA matches within an hour or so drive. It's taken a few years to get to this place though.

My scarce time is better spent in structured, purposeful practice. Now, I have access to private action pistol bays, have a combination of club-provided and personal props, and have attended enough Ben Stoeger classes & read his & Anderson's books to have an excellent idea of how to spent 3-500 rounds in a 2-5 hour practice session.

The guys at the other matches (IDPA, Outlaw 1/2/3-gun, Steel Challenge, etc.) watch me drive in, hear me shoot up a storm, and watch me drive out...I don't really miss it.

[Sal Picante]

The inefficiency and lack of leadership in most local clubs is unnerving. The national organizations have no control over this issue. Showing up at a local match, paying cash to participate, and getting exactly what is described above kills it for me. As for getting involved to improve things, I spent several years doing so, including being a board member, and nothing improved. I was told instead to go away because I complained too much.

"If you don't like it, you can leave." That sort of thing.

I will still attend a couple of times a year, but no one can tell me anymore it matters when so much time is wasted trying to participate. Instead, take a class, learn to practice on your own more effectively, perhaps find a like-minded friend or two who is a fellow traveler in the art of the pistol. Lose the noise, the distractions, and the uncooperative attitudes. Keep smiling.

We had that in Norther IL... We put a stop to that post haste by overtaking the club board.

It is tough to do this alone, but it is possible to encourage people to step up, get folks moving faster and make things more efficient: quicker stages, attendance limit/cap, RO focus on readiness and moving people through.

Man... You guys need to shoot a match at Alpha Range in McHenry IL to experience what I'm talking about: fast paced.

Right @Matt Little and @45dotACP?

"CLOSE THE DOOR!!!"

[gomerpyle]

"CLOSE THE DOOR!!!"

I can confirm that Les lives by these words

[Sammy1]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, IDPA and USPSA are really good trigger time. Most cops only shoot when they have to. I shoot whenever I can but my local club sucks, they don't allow drawing from the holster, static line firing only at fixed positions (25ft, 50ft or outside 25yds & 50yds) no fast firing or humanoid targets. For $20 I get to go to a IDPA/USPSA match were I can shoot as fast as I want, move and shoot, draw from holster and or concealment, reload under stress, shoot from cover and shoot at various targets at various ranges.

[revchuck38]

I was recently re-reading an older post (annoying rightness of of bolke and dobbs) and, while long, it seems relevant here given the LE context and the discussion between those pushing technical abilities and those for whom the gun is a tool.

I think the part about subconscious ability and focusing on shooting at an appropriate pace that allows for high accountability and continual assessment and working of the tactical problem stood out to me the most as the key takeaway lessons for anyone here that might carry a gun, whether as a civilian or for a living.

I just read the above thread from start to finish. Well worth the time.

[Hdmotorcop]

Hey guys, new guy here.... though not new to LE or the handgun! I a very new to IDPA though.

I just read the entire thread. I can confirm many of the stereotypes described. It's a shame on both sides of the coin. So many cops view shooting as a necessary aspect of their job, but no more. They (we'd) be served so well having spent some time in an IDPA like setting.

My job shoots just twice a year.....about 6 hours each time. Hmmmm.....not enough in my humble opinion.

My rod & gun club, though a great place, doesn't allow any shooting from outside the range building. Though targets can be set anywhere from about 3yds out to 100. There are a couple of us that are trying to bring some "practical pistol" to the club. We have some support in that from the board, but it's limited. With that in mind, I've started going to another club across the river that focuses more on the competitive side of shooting. I've shot one local match and a couple evenings of their "practical Pistol" night (basically an IDPA night w/o sanctioning, just practice in various stages). I LIKE IT! And..........I'm humbled. Watching some of these guys shoot a COF in seconds and clean or only 1-2 down is impressive!

I do believe that we, as cops are selling ourselves short by not expanding our horizons to some of this competitive shooting. That said, some of the guys at the IDPA match were very frank with me saying that some of the cops over the years that showed, were terrible shots and unsafe per the "rules" as well as generally (NDs). One thing I did learn quickly is that it's a GAME with GAME RULES that may or may not coincide with what is taught at the PD range.........

All that said, I plan to continue playing the IDPA "game" ...... and try to bring some of those skills to work and to teaching at my R&G club's soon to be started (I hope) practical shoot sessions!

[Jim Watson]

One thing I did learn quickly is that it's a GAME with GAME RULES that may or may not coincide with what is taught at the PD range.........

I heard a guy point out to a prospective competitor "There are a lot of safety rules that the military and police don't have." (He is US Army Ret., her brother is a cop.)
Darn right there are. IDPA etc. has to push a number of shooters of widely varying experience through courses of fire that are meant to be novel and challenging. There is not the uniformity of training and equipment the government strives for. There is a lot of liability risk in the shooting sports; shoot a competitor or a neighbor and the range will quite likely be out of business.

GAME rules are somewhat in the same direction. A shooting match has to be seen as fair and uniform competition, the "level playing field." It has to be administered by volunteer labor as consistently as possible. Recent rule changes in IDPA have been in that direction; fault lines replacing eyeball judgment on use of cover, no requirement to shoot on the move where baby steps and moon walks had become usual.