Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 54

Thread: How to demo advantages of gripping the carbine forearm vs mag well

  1. #21
    Site Supporter LOKNLOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma
    IMO, at the ranges and shooting speeds where pushing one's hand further out to drive the gun really matter, the potential impact shift you might be able to induce is much less relevant than the performance gain in running the gun. Hand out further is much better for working barricade bracing, too.
    --Josh
    “Formerly we suffered from crimes; now we suffer from laws.” - Tacitus.

  2. #22
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Kansas City
    It may be just my advanced years, but I learned to cradle the delta ring in the web of my hand so that I could get my forearm directly under the gun... I guess kind of a natural position thing. I have since adopted a farther out grip because of what loknlod said.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Redhat View Post
    Don't the Marines shoot with the sling? Wonder if they do anything different?
    Pretty sure they do, not sure on the specifics though. If you zeroed in the slung up prone position, and only shot from that position, you could be somewhat consistent. They might only be shooting silhouettes though and not scoring rings, not sure on that piece. For faster combat style matches under time constraints, it’s a no go. If you had to make shots where you couldn’t sling up, your zero and dope would be off.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by JAD View Post
    It may be just my advanced years, but I learned to cradle the delta ring in the web of my hand so that I could get my forearm directly under the gun... I guess kind of a natural position thing. I have since adopted a farther out grip because of what loknlod said.
    Yeah, just as you describe and making a sort of claw to push the mag, which is on the ground, back into your shoulder is how we shoot prone. But again, we are using crappy issue M16A4s with non free float hand guards. Even shooting at 25 yards, if you have your hand farther out and are really pulling it in to control recoil, it can move the impact a couple inches. It can be the difference in shooting Xs and shooting 4s.

    Good free float rails are the way to go and you don’t have to worry about that mess. I definitely prefer running my hand farther out shooting standing 100 yards and in. My transitions and recoil control are much better.

  5. #25
    Easy demo is: have the shooter hold the gun with magwell, someone on the side jerk the barrel around a bit. Then, with a more forward hold, do same. Simple demonstration of leverage.

    I use a VFG and/or C-clamp grip, but as others have said, it depends on what you're doin'.

    That's great for fast shooting, cornering, etc., but when going prone with full kit on, holdin' that bitch up at the ready for extended periods or when totally smoked, I might sometimes grab the magwell.

  6. #26
    Member TGS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Back in northern Virginia
    OP: I think you can only lead a horse to water, not drink it. The best way to get them drinking, IMO, is actually getting them to experience the improvement.

    Most shooters suck, so there's not really any improvement they note when they try the c-clamp.

    Try a VTAC 1-5 drill. It can be close up, but I imagine shooting 25 yards on a 6-8" bull would do the job even better. If they can't see the improvement with that drill, then they're not actually shooting better with it....so you might as well let them do whatever.

    I'm not one of those people who buys into the idea that an instructor should devote as much time and attention as it takes to make a student better, and constantly find ways to try to make them "see the light." Re: the c-clamp and some other techniques, I remember standing on the line and firing 7 rounds with a given target/time that some other shooters could only fire 2-3 times. It doesn't matter how much they suck, they don't seem to want to actually pay attention or give something an honest go. Tangent alert: Enter comments by people during our Glock transition that had previously said the SIG sucks and we needed Glocks, but when we transitioned they still sucked with Glocks. You can't help these sorts of people.

    If any of these shooters were actually giving the technique a solid go, then theyd have discovered its benefit by now and their performance would be undeniable proof that even they wouldn't be able to ignore....either that or they just suck too much for it to make a difference. Let them be. Focus your attention on people who want to actually do better.

    Quote Originally Posted by CalmlyDeMented View Post
    Even shooting at 25 yards, if you have your hand farther out and are really pulling it in to control recoil, it can move the impact a couple inches. It can be the difference in shooting Xs and shooting 4s.
    A couple inches at 25 yards? That sounds........exceptional. I've never noted that much deviation on non-FF Mk18s nor M4s when using a c-clamp grip, or ratcheting down on the handguard for barricade or monopod prone out to 50....including zero targets at 50. I haven't even been able to discern any significant movement until 100 where other factors are more likely explanations for POI shifts.

    ETA: At first I said measurable movement at 100, which is incorrect. I corrected myself to "significant".
    Last edited by TGS; 08-23-2018 at 03:58 PM.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  7. #27
    Site Supporter PNWTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    E. WA
    Quote Originally Posted by CalmlyDeMented View Post
    Yeah, just as you describe and making a sort of claw to push the mag, which is on the ground, back into your shoulder is how we shoot prone. But again, we are using crappy issue M16A4s with non free float hand guards. Even shooting at 25 yards, if you have your hand farther out and are really pulling it in to control recoil, it can move the impact a couple inches. It can be the difference in shooting Xs and shooting 4s.

    Good free float rails are the way to go and you don’t have to worry about that mess. I definitely prefer running my hand farther out shooting standing 100 yards and in. My transitions and recoil control are much better.
    If you are observing that kind of shift you need an armorer, not a new hand placement.
    "Do nothing which is of no use." -Musashi

    What would TR do? TRCP BHA

  8. #28
    Member TGS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Back in northern Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by CalmlyDeMented View Post
    Pretty sure they do, not sure on the specifics though. If you zeroed in the slung up prone position, and only shot from that position, you could be somewhat consistent. They might only be shooting silhouettes though and not scoring rings, not sure on that piece. For faster combat style matches under time constraints, it’s a no go. If you had to make shots where you couldn’t sling up, your zero and dope would be off.
    The Table 1 course of fire includes shooting standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone on both scoring rings and silhouettes out to 500 yards.

    It's common for guys to make pen marks on the sling so they set the sling as consistently as possible, but there's still a pretty good amount of natural play (variance?) In the tension from string to string.

    If the average M16 was subject to a couple inches deviation at 25 yards from tension on the handguard, I'm fairly confident no Marine would have passed the Table 1 rifle qual in the last few decades. We are talking Marines, not some NRA Service Rifle match junkie that spends every weekend on a 600 yard range.

    ETA: Come to think of it, the vaunted K31 is noted for being particularly finicky with tension, and even on any of my 3 Swiss rifles I've never noted anything as severe as a couple inches at 25 yards.
    Last edited by TGS; 08-23-2018 at 04:20 PM.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  9. #29
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Huntsville, AL
    I had this discussion years ago with a friend who "been 'round guns his whole life" and the magwell grip was all there was in his view.

    Walked to the scrap lumber pile in my shed and grabbed a 3' scrap piece of 2x4 and had him try to maneuver/swing to point to point like a rifle with his hands about 6" apart then again about 18" apart. It was a lightbulb moment for him.

    It was kinda funny too. Duderino is an engineer who took a lot of physics/dynamics courses and works on some high speed stuff (literally) and didn't understand what I was getting at until I put a scrap piece of lumber in his hands. Guess I speak engineer well enough but not that specific dialect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    There's a safety issue here also. If you've ever seen an AR go high order with an overpressure round or bore obstruction, it blows apart in the ejection port and mag well area. You're literally "holding the grenade" if you mag well hold these guns. Just stop it....
    This was another point that I had brought up several times to folks. I like keeping my hands away from places where high speed bits of metal and plastic want to vacate the premises should things go awry . . . if at all possible (kinda hard to do on, say, a Glock)


    Sent from my fruit based pocket computer using Tapatalk

    Disclaimer: I work in the firearms industry as a designer and engineer. My posts do not represent the opinions or positions of my employers, past or present.
    "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
    Disclaimer: I have previously worked in the firearms industry as an engineer. Thoughts and opinions expressed here are mine alone and not those of my prior employers.

  10. #30
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Wokelandia
    All you need to do is watch the top guys at 3 Gun. None of them grips the magwell.

    USPSA PCC shooters either.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •