Keith's heavy .38

[Jim Watson]

Keith had two loads for 38 Spl. I'd have to look up the light load, but the heavy load ended up with the same powder charge as Skeeters load, but with Keiths heavier 358429 bullet. Somewhere, Skeeter mentions deliberately dropping the bullet weight because Keiths load seemed too hot for his needs. Keiths original 358429 has bounced up and down on weight, but the original design was 173 gr.

What he actually said was:
"I particularly like my old heavy .38 Special load with Keith hollow point 160 grain bullet and 13.5 grains 2400 in .38 Special cases in this gun."

Phil Sharpe had his own SWC which he considered superior because at 158 grains it had less weight and less bearing surface and as he spec'ed it out, cast closer to groove diameter than the usual Lyman-Keith. In fact, the only loads he showed with no. 2400 powder were with the 146 gr hollow point version.

Chic Gaylord considered the Keith hollow point too obviously deadly for police use.

[Crazy Dane]

A while back I tried 170 SWCs and they were too long in magnum cases and I was instructed to research .38-44 load data. I copied below from my reloading journal. I'm still using 12.5g of 2400 in nickel .38 cases. I don't know what pressures these are supposed to be but I just tickle the ejector rod and the empty cases fall out.



The Elmer Keith load for the Lyman 358429 170gr bullet was 13.5gr of 2400. I started with 12gr and 12.5gr loads. After testing, there is no need to seek further. Due to limited .38 special brass and 3 revolvers to shoot, I only had enough to test 5 rounds of each charge per gun. 10 yards to target, 10ft to chronograph.

12.5 grains 2400

Ruger GP100 WC 3" - 1288, good accuracy. covered all 5 with a 2" paster.

Colt Python 4" - 1363, 2.5" group, could be the shooter. I was surprised at the lack of felt recoil with the Colt.

Ruger SP101 2.25" - 1218, Worst group out of the 3 at 4". This load is not intended for this gun, just curious.

12 grains of 2400

Ruger GP100 WC 3" - 1195, just under a 2" group.

Colt Python 4" - 1289, 1.5" group, see why its becoming my fav?

Ruger SP101 2.25" - 1104, great group, sub 2" but over 4" high from POA.

.38-44 Learning has occurred! (pistol-forum.com)

[Jim Watson]

Interesting.
Skeeter said 1250 fps with 13.5 gr 2400 and 155 gr gas check.

Luckygunner Labs shows factory 158 gr .357 Magnum from 1181 to 1287 fps in 4" Ruger.

You may have a "fast" Colt barrel or maybe the powder is "hotter." I have been asking about powder variations on another board.

[Outpost75]

Larry Gibson over on another forum Cast Boolits pressure tested the Skeeter load in a TC Contender fitted with strain gage interface to Oehler 43 PBL. The 13.5 grain charge with #358156 in .38 Special brass exceeds the SAAMI MAP for .357 Magnum. Better to reduce the charge to 12 grains for S&W N-frames and Rugers and not to exceed 11 grains in anything else if you want the gun to last.

Remember also that barrel-cylinder gap has as much influence on velocity as barrel length. A 4 inch gun at min. spec. pass 0.003"/ hold 0.004" will chronograph faster than a 6-inch gun at max. 0.008" pass/ 0.009" hold. These days it is not unusual to find a new in box S&W with B-C gap of 0.010 whereas in my day such a gun would be rejected as "open front gage" and returned to assembly for refit of a + cylnder 0.005" longer. This was the factory fix for OFG to avoid having to set back and refit a barrel.

[358156hp]

Current SAAMI MAP is 35,000 PSI.
Current CIP MAP is 43,000 PSI.
Originally, the 357 MAP was listed at 46,000 CUP, approximately 43,000 PSI, but SAAMI decided that 357 magnum was too hard on some guns, and needed to be downloaded a bit. So now we're at 35,000 PSI.

So we went from having heavily built 357 revolvers, and now we have 357 Mag J frames?(I have one) I've been trying to wrap my head around that for years. Was this a safety issue, or a marketing issue?

There. I finally said it out loud.

[jtcarm]

Current SAAMI MAP is 35,000 PSI.
Current CIP MAP is 43,000 PSI.
Originally, the 357 MAP was listed at 46,000 CUP, approximately 43,000 PSI, but SAAMI decided that 357 magnum was too hard on some guns, and needed to be downloaded a bit. So now we're at 35,000 PSI.

So we went from having heavily built 357 revolvers, and now we have 357 Mag J frames?(I have one) I've been trying to wrap my head around that for years. Was this a safety issue, or a marketing issue?

There. I finally said it out loud.

Current SAAMI MAP is 35,000 PSI.
Current CIP MAP is 43,000 PSI.
Originally, the 357 MAP was listed at 46,000 CUP, approximately 43,000 PSI, but SAAMI decided that 357 magnum was too hard on some guns, and needed to be downloaded a bit. So now we're at 35,000 PSI.

So we went from having heavily built 357 revolvers, and now we have 357 Mag J frames?(I have one) I've been trying to wrap my head around that for years. Was this a safety issue, or a marketing issue?

There. I finally said it out loud.

Current SAAMI MAP is 35,000 PSI.
Current CIP MAP is 43,000 PSI.
Originally, the 357 MAP was listed at 46,000 CUP, approximately 43,000 PSI, but SAAMI decided that 357 magnum was too hard on some guns, and needed to be downloaded a bit. So now we're at 35,000 PSI.

So we went from having heavily built 357 revolvers, and now we have 357 Mag J frames?(I have one) I've been trying to wrap my head around that for years. Was this a safety issue, or a marketing issue?

There. I finally said it out loud.

SAAMI MAP was reduced due to durability issues in medium-frame revolvers.

A J-frame probably would last long fed a steady diet of 43,500 PSI ammo. There may be safety issues as well.

[willie]

Improved metallurgy, heat treating, and a small frame tweak permitted current J frames to withstand 357 Mag pressures.

Keith's 359421 designed before the 357 Mag came about is too long to fit some brand of cylinders when loaded in magnum cases. The reason is the location of crimp groove. 173 grains is a nominal weight. The harder the alloy, the less this bullet weighs--more tin and antimony means a smaller percentage of lead.

[358156hp]

SAAMI MAP was reduced due to durability issues in medium-frame revolvers.

A J-frame probably would last long fed a steady diet of 43,500 PSI ammo. There may be safety issues as well.

And then S&W started playing the discontinuation game with K Frames, then reintroducing them, then discontinuing them again. I see a few variations of the M19 are currently cataloged, along with a M66.

[jtcarm]

For reference, I went to the range yesterday to test some “workup” .357 ammo using the Accurate 36-170A bullet, which weighs right at 170 grains cast from COWW + 2%.

I was looking for a load that would do around 1,000 FPS.

12.7 grains of IMR 4227 got me a bit over that with “meh” accuracy.

Switching to 2400, my starting load of 12 grains was VERY noticeably hotter, averaging around 1,200 FPS from a 6.5” Blackhawk. My Caldwell phone app wasn’t cooperating, so numbers aren’t precise.

Cases still ejected easily, so pressure probably wasn’t very high, but there’s no way I’d try that in a .38 case, much less 13.5.

[entropy]

What kind of accuracy were you getting with the 2400?