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Thread: AAR - Chuck Haggard Practical Revolvers 8-12-18

  1. #1
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    AAR - Chuck Haggard Practical Revolvers 8-12-18

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    As of this date it has been a little more than thirty two years since the Miami Shootout. That event caused police departments and private citizens alike to reevaluate their choices in defensive sidearms and ammunition. Within a decade the hegemony of the double action revolver as a police sidearm had been so thoroughly reversed that the police officer still carrying one was the exception rather than the rule.

    We are certainly spoiled for choices when it comes to selecting a semi-automatic pistol these days, but that doesn't mean that the revolver is completely obsolete. There are some things wheel guns do better than semi-automatics...and in the future shifting political winds may well force us back to relying on the revolver as our primary defensive handgun.

    With those things in mind, I think it is valuable to spend some effort learning to live with a double action revolver as a defensive sidearm. Trouble is that there are only a handful of folks in the training business who still know how to run...and more importantly, how to teach...the double action revolver.

    Chuck Haggard is one of those who can.

    The Class:

    After a safety brief and covering the medical plan, Chuck began class by having students shoot a simple 5 round assessment drill. It was clear from the assessment that some students had some decent training under their belts with a wheelgun, while some...well...did not.

    Chuck explained grip, making the grip of the revolver fit the shooter (something that is much more difficult to accomplish with most semi-auto pistols compared to revolvers), and the proper approach to controlling a double-action trigger.

    Chuck covered multiple techniques for reloading the revolver based on the size of the revolver (small revolvers need a little bit different technique than medium and full-sized ones) and the equipment being used. Speed loaders, speed strips, and even methods for reloading the revolver with loose rounds were covered:

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    "I had a friend in the middle of a gunfight...he's taking rounds in the driver's door and he's laying down in the seat, and he figures out right then and there these things are gravity fed."

    The class was then walked through a series of revolver ball-and dummy drills as Chuck and I went from student to student coaching on grip, trigger control, and trigger finger placement. Trigger finger placement was especially important for people with large hands using small revolvers with small grips. It is really easy for the typical pocket-carry suitable J frame to be driven off the intended point of aim by sub-optimal trigger finger placement.

    After working on a series of drills using primarily small 5 inch "face" targets, we broke for a working lunch where Chuck talked a bit about terminal ballistics, ammunition selection, and human anatomy.

    Back in the day revolvers were often used with ammunition that wouldn't meet modern performance standards. 158 grain lead round nosed bullets fired out of a .38 or .357 magnum revolver at moderate speeds were common. These are not spectacular performers...and yet there were a number of police officers who had a pretty good track record of stopping lethal assaults using low capacity revolvers shooting sub-optimal ammunition.

    How is that? Well, to paraphrase Chuck - it actually works pretty good if you can shoot.

    Chuck placed an emphasis on precisely placing shots on bits of human anatomy that will incapacitate an attacker. He used VTAC targets that give a good representation of human anatomy to illustrate the importance of shot placement.

    After lunch the students were put to work on failure drills using the VTAC targets.

    Something that struck me throughout the class was the level of accuracy I was seeing from the students. While we had a couple of folks there who had clearly spent time running a revolver before and a couple with significant training evident on other handguns, I'd say at least half the class was what I would refer to as novice shooters and yet despite this they were delivering excellent accuracy with revolvers. At least an order of magnitude better than what I'm used to seeing in the typical semi-auto centric classes.

    Chuck explained the need to select ammunition that hit to the point of aim of the sights on revolvers that have fixed sights like the typical J frame revolver. He then had the class do an abbreviated walk-back so they could determine how their point of aim might change as we stretched the distance.

    I was using a 6" S&W model 29 with .44 special loads in class and I found that up close I was having to use a 6:00 hold on the target to hit center at even close range. Some folks found that their revolver and ammo worked well together. Others found that they experienced significant vertical stringing as the distance increased and they had to use some level of Kentucky windage to shoot. Chuck gave the sage advice to buy ammo that hit to the sights instead of buying uber-bullets that you had to use with significant guess work.

    After this we put up the targets Tom Givens uses for the Casino Drill, and Chuck had the students work strings of fire on the combination of numbers and shapes to force presentations to the target, transitions from target to target, accuracy at speed, and reloads.

    It was unfortunately at this point when the skies opened up and we started to get lighting and heavy rain. This was a serious concern because the week prior the FPF Training range had been flooded. The storm that settled in on us knocked down trees, power lines, and flooded several areas in Northern Virginia including parts of Culpeper.

    Chuck reluctantly had to call a halt to class about 2 hours earlier than planned due to the danger posed by the weather.

    Even so, the students who were using J frames in the class were kind of glad...as even the relatively modest round count to that point was proving quite painful for them.

    Shooting double action revolvers all day is actually really hard work if you aren't used to it...so much moreso when you are using lightweight J frame revolvers with anything stronger than wadcutters.

    Equipment:

    Equipment ran the gamut. We had super lightweight J frame revolvers all the way up to my 6" model 29 and damn near everything imaginable in between including a Ruger Match Champion in 10mm, multiple K and L frame revolvers in .38 and .357 magnum, Ruger LCRs, a Colt Night Cobra, and even a S&W Model 58 in .41 magnum. With Herett's grips, no less.

    All the revolvers worked pretty well, although some students found that the grip on their gun was not ideal for their hand size.

    The one equipment issue that stands out to me was with a S&W 625 that used moon clips. The student running that revolver has been in a number of handgun courses running that revolver without issue...but in this class he bent a moon clip and it bound the revolver up pretty hard. I had to give it a pretty stern smack to get the cylinder open to clear it.

    People with big revolvers who weren't used to running a DA revolver found themselves getting somewhat fatigued as the day went on. Those hardy souls using lighweight J frames were hating life right about the time class was called due to weather.

    Summary:

    Chuck clearly has a deep knowledge of living with the revolver as a defensive sidearm. I learned a few new tricks in the class and I'm one of the strange dudes who tries to keep a decent level of skill with a revolver.

    I also observed yet again that small revolvers, for all their drawbacks, still have a practical role as a primary defensive sidearm. Revolvers on the whole are not as reliable as legend would have you believe. There are lots of ways for a revolver to shut down and it usually requires tools and significant force to fix them. A Glock 19 will fire more rounds with less maintenance and less chance of a serious problem than a S&W model 19.

    ...but when we shrink the overall size of the handgun and discuss small revolvers versus small semi-automatic pistols, everything changes. I've seen lots of people trying to run small semi-automatic pistols of various types over the years and they just don't work as reliably as small revolvers. They are also more difficult for people to manipulate safely. Watching most people try to run small semi-automatic pistols (essentially anything smaller than a Shield) is downright frightening to watch. I would contend that most of those people would still be better served with a J frame and practice than most of the smaller semi-autos.

    I think it's worthwhile to maintain some revolver knowledge, and I think Chuck Haggard is one of the people worth seeing about the revolver. (Tom Givens and Lee Weems would be a couple of other worthwhile options)

    My only gripe is that the weather cut the day short just as we were getting to the point when we could put the pedal to the metal on the round count...but if people spend the time practicing what Chuck taught in their own time they will be very well served indeed.

    An excellent class on what is a very little understood defensive sidearm these days.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 08-17-2018 at 04:43 PM.
    3/15/2016

  2. #2
    Member feudist's Avatar
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    Great writeup.

  3. #3
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Mr. Haggard is on my fairly short list instructors I would like to train with.

    Great review.

  4. #4
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    I would love to take a wheel gun class from Chuck or DB and Wayne. The only formal revolver training I’ve had was a state “instructor” level class where I knew more about wheel guns than the instructors. And everything I’ve learned I’ve picked up on my own, mostly through trial and error when I decided to shoot USPSA in revo class.
    Last edited by Lon; 08-17-2018 at 06:43 PM.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I would love to take a wheel gun class from Chuck or DB and Wayne...everything I’ve learned I’ve picked up on my own, mostly through trial and error when I decided to shoot USPSA in revo class.
    +1, except with me it was IDPA and SSR, where I faked my way up to Expert. Though I've transitioned to autoloaders for carry, I'd like to keep my hand in with revolvers.

  6. #6
    Very nice write up T. I’m sorry I missed this one, as my revolver collection seems to be expanding. Hopefully, next time. Sounds like it was a great class.


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  7. #7
    Member Hizzie's Avatar
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    Nice read.
    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    Oh man, that's right. I forgot that some people feel like they need light SA triggers in DA guns instead of just learning to shoot the gun better. You can get a Redhawk DA trigger pull down to 10 lbs, and if you can't manage that you suck and should probably just practice more.
    *RS Regulate Affiliate*

  8. #8
    Well written, as always Tim!

    Legendary Lawman Marshal Chuck Haggard is truly one of the Deans of the industry and is a wealth of knowledge. Bummed I missed this!


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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post


    I think it's worthwhile to maintain some revolver knowledge, and I think Chuck Haggard is one of the people worth seeing about the revolver. (Tom Givens and Lee Weems would be a couple of other worthwhile options)
    As luck would have it, I'm hosting Tom for his revolver course on 4/12/19, and it will be followed on 4/13-14/18 with the Rangemaster Advanced Instructor Course. These are separate signups. I'm just outside of Athens, GA.

    Chuck will be doing a class with The Complete Combatant folks here in GA on June 8-9.

    Randy Cain has a wheelgun class on December 15-16 down in FL.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  10. #10
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Something I neglected to mention was Chuck's discussion of maintenance.

    Back in the day an officer like Chuck would have carried 18 cartridges on his person total. 6 in his revolver, and maybe 12 more in speed loaders. The revolver had to work 18 times max.

    When qualification courses were fired, it was pretty typical for some level of maintenance to be done on the revolver during a ~ 50 round course of fire. The cylinder would often be brushed out under the ejector star and the holes in the cylinder might get punched with a cleaning brush. After qualifications were over it was fairly typical for cleaning to happen right there on the range or just adjacent.

    A Glock 17 carried on duty today has as much ammo just in the gun as the typical revolver-armed LEO carried in total back in the day. If an officer goes through the 18 in the gun and two magazines he has expended 52 rounds of ammunition. In excess of what is fired in a typical police qualification. The semi-auto pistols are almost never maintained during the shooting process unless an instructor notes that the officer's pistol is chirping because it is completely devoid of lubrication.

    Cleaning, at least in the departments I'm familiar with, isn't happening on the range anymore...although it should because many officers are only shooting at qualifications and are not performing routine maintenance tasks like lubricating the pistol regularly.

    Back in the day maintenance was a much higher priority because you absolutely had to do more of it to keep a revolver functioning....which is why it was often done under supervision. You shot the qual, you cleaned the gun, and it was inspected before you were allowed to leave the range. People who are used to Glocks don't intuitively understand that they need to be much more aggressive about cleaning and maintenance to keep a revolver in proper working order.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 08-18-2018 at 07:06 PM.
    3/15/2016

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