More than 1,000 Children Allegedly Molested in PA by the Catholic Church

[JAD]

Implicit encouragement is given when the Church does things like:
1) hids molester priests for law enforcement by quickly transferring the accused out of the jurisdiction
2) brings pressure to bear on local prosecutors to drop credible cases
3) repeatedly exposes children to priests known to have molested in the past
4) goes on ridiculous PR campaigns suggesting that the accused priests not be scapegoated

I could go on but you should get the picture - all of those actions encourage rather than deter this nightmare

Yes, we did all those things. I'm having trouble with the present tense -- not that I don't think there's still a lot of weeding out to do, but I do think the Church is /beginning/ to understand the scale of the problem and to adopt the right position in the face of it.

It's very hard, because the voices from outside that are pressing on the Church are not the victims, or their families; they are the enemies of the Church, and they don't want to make the Church better, or safer -- they just want it to go away. And frankly, they don't give two shits about the victims, they're just looking for an excuse to attack the institution.

It is essential to its mission that the Church be insular and hard to change from without. A Church that's subject to the whims of society, or its body, or its temporary leaders cannot be effective in preparing the world for conversion through evangelization and the ministry of sacraments. Part of the poverty of response of the Church is normal human corruption, from which one is not vaccinated by ordination. But part of it is also this armor, which is necessary and important to the faith.

None of this is an excuse for the slowness, or should be interpreted as tolerance for corruption, or a way to explain it away. It still all needs to be fixed -- but again, in fixing it, the nature of the Church has to be preserved for the Church to be effective.

[RoyGBiv]

I'm having trouble with the present tense

In the present tense, the Church is still obfuscating. Hiding the heinous perpetrators. Making excuses about "enemies of the Church."

You're worried about the "enemies of the Church".. ?
How about the enemies within? How many of those bastards and their enablers are still hidden by the Church?
How many FRIENDS of the Church won't come to its defense because of this continued obfuscation? A greater number than its enemies, perhaps?
How enabled are the churchs enemies when the church continues to hide the evildoers under its roof?

There needs to be a purge.. Every offender... Every known offense...
Offenders still alive need to be cast-out and prosecuted. Those that knowingly hid them need to be purged and prosecuted as well.

There are tens of thousands (hundreds?) of victims in the US alone. How many priests and their enablers have gone to prison? Few. Far too few.
There is no excuse strong enough to provide cover. It's nothing but complicity with the evil that still lives under the churchs' roof.

A Church that is protecting the most evil among us is the enemy of society, hiding behind excuses that don't stand up to the scope and egregiousness of the known offenses.

[Clusterfrack]

@GuanoLoco already said pretty much everything I would have—until @JAD responded with the assertion that people who don’t like Priests buggering altar boys are “enemies of the Church” and don’t care about the victims.

I don’t know if I’m an enemy of the church, but right now I’m kind of feeling like I want to be one.

I feel so sorry for the kids forced into an institution where they will be abused.

Yes, we did all those things. I'm having trouble with the present tense -- not that I don't think there's still a lot of weeding out to do, but I do think the Church is /beginning/ to understand the scale of the problem and to adopt the right position in the face of it.

It's very hard, because the voices from outside that are pressing on the Church are not the victims, or their families; they are the enemies of the Church, and they don't want to make the Church better, or safer -- they just want it to go away. And frankly, they don't give two shits about the victims, they're just looking for an excuse to attack the institution.

It is essential to its mission that the Church be insular and hard to change from without. A Church that's subject to the whims of society, or its body, or its temporary leaders cannot be effective in preparing the world for conversion through evangelization and the ministry of sacraments. Part of the poverty of response of the Church is normal human corruption, from which one is not vaccinated by ordination. But part of it is also this armor, which is necessary and important to the faith.

None of this is an excuse for the slowness, or should be interpreted as tolerance for corruption, or a way to explain it away. It still all needs to be fixed -- but again, in fixing it, the nature of the Church has to be preserved for the Church to be effective.

[GuanoLoco]

... It is essential to its mission that the Church be insular and hard to change from without. A Church that's subject to the whims of society, or its body, or its temporary leaders cannot be effective in preparing the world for conversion through evangelization and the ministry of sacraments. Part of the poverty of response of the Church is normal human corruption, from which one is not vaccinated by ordination. But part of it is also this armor, which is necessary and important to the faith.

None of this is an excuse for the slowness, or should be interpreted as tolerance for corruption, or a way to explain it away. It still all needs to be fixed -- but again, in fixing it, the nature of the Church has to be preserved for the Church to be effective.

Your assumption, as an insider, is that this mission is essential.

From the perspective of an outsider, the mission of organizational self-propagation is unimportant and the god-talk of ministries and sacraments is bizarre. Frankly it is no more attractive than the propagation of any other organized religion. In the light of historical culture and proven misdeeds of the church (not to mention other religious organizations) I see it as chilling.

There is an implicit claim that the value of the church should somehow offset the severity of its misdeeds. Secondarily, that the situation should be viewed from a forward-looking, rosily optimistic, self-healing perspective. From my point of view, this perspective does not and should not inoculate the church from being held globally and externally accountable for the severity and frequency of its misdeeds, regardless of geography, statute of limitations or special 'religious' status.

[JAD]

@GuanoLoco already said pretty much everything I would have—until @JAD responded with the assertion that people who don’t like Priests buggering altar boys are “enemies of the Church” and don’t care about the victims.

I did paint all of the 'voices from outside' with a broad brush -- that wasn't fair. It's hard to parse the justifiable disgust and outrage we all -- any person -- would feel toward these crimes and their perpetrators from the false umbrage and sanctimonious soapboxing of people and organizations who have always hated the Church and are looking for any reason to tear it down.

I feel so sorry for the kids forced into an institution where they will be abused.

I can't tell what tense you're using, but just in case 'will be' suggests present or future: Children currently engaged in activities under the aegis of the Church are substantially less likely to be abused than those engaged in public schooling. We have more layers of responsibility, clearer rules, more even promulgation of those rules, and more internal focus than the public schools do, and as a result we abuse fewer children. There are a bunch of statistics to back that up. That is despite the fact that public schoolteachers are not generally celibate, at least not by choice.

We should abuse zero children, and there is a lot of work to do. My seven year old goes to Catholic school. He's safer than your kid, if your kid is in public school.

[Clusterfrack]

Thanks for the response @JAD. I appreciate your comments about painting with a broad brush.

I hope you understand when I say I don’t trust the Church. It continues to operate in secrecy, and I find it extremely hard to believe that all the molesters and their advocates have been rooted out.

When my girls were in school, when bad things happened, parents quickly found out, and the perpetrators were jailed.

[TiroFijo]

JAD, as a fellow catholic and citing only a prominent case: why the Cardinal Law was never brought to justice?

Why the US catholic church was not united to investigate this case to the core, and let chips fall where they may?

[JAD]

Thanks for the response @JAD. I appreciate your comments about painting with a broad brush.

I hope you understand when I say I don’t trust the Church. It continues to operate in secrecy, and I find it extremely hard to believe that all the molesters and their advocates have been rooted out.

When my girls were in school, when bad things happened, parents quickly found out, and the perpetrators were jailed.

I can dig it. No way is the massive housecleaning even one percent complete, and until it is it's really hard to trust it. For those of us who are Catholic, though, we have no alternative. I would never, in a million years, subject my child to secular school. I would never, ever consider staying away from mass -- even if I had to drive 100 miles one way, even if... even if anything, really. So for us, it's not a matter of saying, "oh well, I'll just go worship some other way." There is no other way. We have to fix the engine in flight.

[JAD]

JAD, as a fellow catholic and citing only a prominent case: why the Cardinal Law was never brought to justice?

Why the US catholic church was not united to investigate this case to the core, and let chips fall where they may?

First, with respect to Law: Because neither the justice system nor his confessor determined that what he did or what he failed to do merited more than his resignation. I wish the Church had done more with it, but they did something they certainly never had done before.

Secondly, with the [world, not US] Church's slow and inadequate response to the problem: because we were stiff necked and of little faith. Because we were convinced that if we were too open in our investigations and in the public disposal of guilty persons, we would be sued out of existence, and that would be the greater of two evils. Because of the poverty of vocations, which was I'm sure terrifying to them when they looked at the numbers.

There's still a lot of that going on. It will take continual pressure from the laity and from the hierarchy to push both to keep digging. It will keep sucking, because we will keep finding more issues.

The best way to deal with it, as a Catholic, is to go. to. fucking. Mass. If you're Catholic, you ascribe tremendous power to prayer -- and if you're well formed, you know that salvation history, from Gen 2 to Apocalypse 22:21, is one long string of awful disasters of ego.

[Hambo]

It continues to operate in secrecy,

Not really. In my diocese, allegations of abuse don't get investigated by clergy. There is a lay review board, similar to civilian review boards for LE, that investigates. LE is also notified. Also, everyone who comes in contact with kids, elderly, or disabled persons has to submit to fingerprinting and a criminal background check. The is clergy, teachers, volunteers, the janitor, everybody.

It would be helpful to the entire conversation if people researched beyond the news reports and their own anti-religious biases.