Economic Disparity and Associated Social Issues

[RoyGBiv]

Complaining about income inequality here is just plain, good old fashioned whining.

I tend to think that the real problem isn't income inequality, but rather, perceived opportunity upward mobility.
It's depressing to hear people claim "that guy is too rich", in a society that has relatively (compared to other nations) few barriers to self-improvement.

The problem is that the important decisions, the things that shape you, are already made by the time you;re old enough to own them for yourself...... Stay in school.... Don't do drugs... Don't commit crime... Value family... build positive, constructive relationships and peer groups..... Don't have children you aren't ready to raise to a life you would envy for them... By the time a kid turns 10, it's nearly impossible to break free from the cycle unless they've been blessed with strong guidance. Unless they've learned the value of hard work and are capable of delayed gratification.

If you're hopeless when you're 12, how do you break the cycle?
"Income equality" would be a rally cry for anyone stuck in that place.

[GardoneVT]

Some conceptual detangling is in order here.

Income and lifestyle inequality is expected and healthy. Not everyone values owning a mansion and a fleet of cars- but everyone should have the opportunity to earn those if they do choose.

It is the latter point which is a social concern. If national wealth is so concentrated that ordinary people have no realistic chance to earn a better life , you get Problems. It’s self interest at work - if it’s impossible to build a good life for yourself and family within a society, you’ll probably be apathetic about political involvement and might even want the society to fail.

For a capitalist economy to last everyone has to have the option to earn more. If it’s a rigged game, no one’s gonna play.

[RevolverRob]

but ensuring...all...have the same opportunities ( read, not the same OUTCOMES) to work hard and succeed.

Quoted because it's worth seeing again.

The importance of equal opportunity to maintaining freedom and liberty cannot be overstated.

One issue is that people equate equal outcome as the same as equal opportunity. I suppose there is some truth to that idea. Importantly, if everyone ends up in the same place, chances are good they had the same opportunities (none), because inherent in the nature of Life is a struggle for existence and unequal outcome. The only way to achieve equal outcomes for everyone is for no one to have any opportunity at all and begin and end in the same place.

Unfortunately, the starting point disparity is too large now (and in fact may have been too large to begin with) in our country to ensure equal opportunity under the law. No matter how many universal health cares, universal educations, or universal standards we apply, the gap between starting points is sufficiently large that it cannot be overcome in the (average) person's lifetime. In other words, one person can move themselves forward, but they cannot guarantee that their next generation starts from a significantly better position, partly because the targets are moving quickly, and partly because they lack the resources (and sometimes the knowledge of how) to prepare for those changes.

___

I sure live nicer today than I did as a poor kid. My family worked very hard for years to elevate ourselves. I'm fortunate, I got just enough of a head start that I can make it up and if I had kids, chances are good, they'd get a more advanced starting position than I did. But this is because of various reasons. First, my family got lucky and successfully started a business and maintained and grew that business for more then a decade to establish significant financial stability. Second, I married into an extended family that has considerable wealth and political savvy as part of it, a reflection of my wife's upper-echelon upbringing (her family believes she married "down"), by default our kids will have greater access to resources than many can dream of. Third, though I live nicer today, I carry substantially more debt right now than my parents have for most of my life. That's an interesting problem, because though I "have more" it cost me more too. Theoretically, the more you earn the more you have, i.e., wealth begets wealth. I do not have wealth, I have stuff. It's pretty nice stuff, but it's practically worthless in terms of actual monetary value. My investments are limited and the debt I've taken on, is under the ostensible guise of allowing myself to have a better career and better career prospects (neither of which is actually true at this moment). So, I may live in a nicer house, in a nicer neighborhood, with more crap than when I was a kid, but financially, I'm not in a superior position, that is quite sobering.

[Duelist]

Didn't mean to kick your shins.. Hopefully you know I didn't mean that public schools are worthless? I am the a product of a bottom-of-the-barrel, inner-city public school. An unsafe place where there was no promise that I'd make it home unscathed on any given day. I managed to improve my lot. Many didn't, with equal opportunity.

The difference? I didn't look for any excuses. I realized early on that the only way out was through.

My version of "tough love" public schooling would not be well received. Guaranteed.

We're good, man. You took your opportunities and did something with them. That is what we are supposed to do.

[Joe in PNG]

To quote Robert A Heinlein:
“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as "bad luck.”

[RoyGBiv]

“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”

― Benjamin Franklin

“When the people find that they can vote themselves money that will herald the end of the republic.”

― Benjamin Franklin

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.

... Attributed to Alexander Fraser Tytler

[GardoneVT]

I don’t think it’s this cut and dry. Yes , people vote themselves money from the treasury; but this is usually because earning it isn’t a viable alternative.

Look at the obstacles one must endure today to open a business. Look at the costs, the regulations, the gotchas and bureaucracy. Getting a job is no less hard these days, with one needing a PhD and ten years’ applied experience to drive a Zamboni. If a society can’t provide a viable pathway to success , its members will find other ways. Why bother working if it only means you die tired AND penniless?

[Sensei]

Quoted because it's worth seeing again.

The importance of equal opportunity to maintaining freedom and liberty cannot be overstated.

As a scientist, I cannot think of an ecosystem where equal opportunity is tolerated. Can you? In fact, the whole premise of evolution is to give your offspring a competitive advantage in response to whatever selective pressures exist - be it a saber tooth tiger or economic, legal, educational, etc.

So, someone explain to me why I should embrace equal opportunity when 50,000 years of evolutionary pressure tells me that my genes are more likely to survive if my offspring is born with a competitive advantage? If your answer relies on some concept of “fairness” or survival of our current deteriorating social construct called America, well good luck with that.

[SD]

I worked in a Civil Service position for almost 26 years. The edit comment is exactly the system I worked in(fuck up & move up is what we called it). It was funny until I got promoted...

In fact, may I ask why income equality is something to be aspired to?
It's against all human nature. Which is why the governments who officially tried to get income equality have to kill a good part of the population, because they won't stop being normal humans.

Edit to add: Ponder this- would you support income equality if it meant you got paid exactly the same as the slacker who does nothing but screw stuff up for everyone else?

[JTQ]

One difference with America and the wealthy, is the names constantly change (maybe not in the short term, but historically).

Among the Top 10 richest in America list, how many of these families were on this list in 1950, or 1960?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ist/398877002/

1. Jeff Bezos | Amazon | $112 billion
2. Bill Gates | Microsoft | $90 billion
3. Warren Buffett | Berkshire Hathaway | $84 billion
4. Bernard Arnault & family | LVMH | $72 billion
5. Mark Zuckerberg | Facebook | $71 billion
6. Amancio Ortega | Zara | $70 billion
7 Carlos Slim Helu & family | telecom |$67.1 billion
8. Charles Koch | Koch Industries |$60 billion
9. David Koch | Koch Industries | $60 billion
10.Larry Ellison | software | $58.5 billion

No doubt, they still have a bunch of wealth, but there is no Ford, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Vanderbilt, etc., in that top 10 as industries change, and fortunes are lost or split up.